### Nicene Beliefs Non Latter-day Saint Christians (also known as Nicene Christians) believe the following about God: - **There is only one God** > “We believe in one God...” — Nicene Creed, opening line - **God created everything in existence** > “…the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things > visible and invisible.” — Nicene Creed, 381 version - **God is eternal, uncreated, and the source of all life** > “…begotten, not made…” (referring to the Son), and “the Lord and Giver > of Life” (referring to the Holy Spirit) — Nicene Creed - **God is a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — three persons, one essence** > Implied throughout the Nicene Creed and formally defined at the 1st Council of Constantinople (381 CE) ### LDS Beliefs On the other hand, these core Nicene beliefs are **not** shared by the Church of Latter-day Saints. Indeed the LDS Church explicitly rejects these tenets: > **There is only one God** Latter-day Saints worship only God the Father through Jesus Christ, but they also believe in the existence of a plurality of Gods. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings, and this divine plurality extends beyond them — faithful humans can and have also become exalted and become gods themselves: > “I will preach on the plurality of Gods… The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us.” - Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse --- >> **God created everything in existence** LDS theology holds that God organized the universe from pre-existing, eternal matter, rather than creating ex nihilo (out of nothing). Matter is considered co-eternal with God: > “The elements are eternal...” — Doctrine and Covenants 93:33 --- >> **God is eternal, uncreated, and the source of all life** LDS theology teaches that God is eternal, but not uncreated in the classical Christian sense. According to LDS theology, the LDS God was once a mortal man who progressed to godhood: > “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man... If you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form.” — Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse --- >> **God is a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — three persons, one essence** Latter-day Saints reject the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity. Instead, they believe in a Godhead of three distinct divine beings: God the Father, Jesus Christ (His Son), and the Holy Ghost. These are united in purpose but are not of one substance. > “Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional doctrine of the Trinity as developed in the post–New Testament church.” — Gospel Topics: Godhead ### Question With these apparent fundamental differences in mind, do Nicene Christians believe that they worship the same god as Latter-day Saints? Or do they believe that the Nicene/Trinitarian God is ontologically different enough from the LDS God that they cannot be said to be the same being?

While having a conversation with a member of the Latter day saints. I did some independent research regarding their official account of the origin of their Faith. I did not see any similar question, if there is one I do apologize. Forgive the long build up to my question, it helps the question be properly understood. It is down below in large friendly letters. :) I found this in "Joseph Smith's History" on a very well designed website, that would display explanations for certain words and even links to specific Bible verses involved. During my reading of the first hand account of events, I intentionally did not bother with any historical details nor look up things to bias my original opinion of the text. ---------- The account does not seem to show that Joseph did anything to confirm that his vision was from God and not from the evil one. I come from an eastern orthodox perspective and it seems that Joseph neglected (perhaps due to his age) 2 out of the 3 things we are supposed to do when confronted by visions of supernatural nature. 1. Challenging the messenger, demons can perfectly imitate even divine figures and loved ones. Even various Orthodox saints were deceived by visions where demons impersonated Christ, saints, or similar. We are supposed to challenge them, who sent them, etc. (Example St. Issac of the caves was tricked into worshiping a demon that another one called Christ) 2. Test the message itself, it should align with scripture if it is from God. (Remember this for the question at the end) 3. Seek guidance from a spiritual leader. --------------- These are the issues (minor and major) that I see from reading it. 1. It seems odd that the vision starts with "overpowering darkness" preventing him from speaking. But that doesn't really pose an issue, especially if Joseph did become freed by calling out to God. 2. In the vision, one being points to the other and says "this is my son", who's son? Lucifer and God both will say that they have a son. The orthodox church accounts of visions have many instances where one demon calls another "Christ" to deceive the recipient. 3. The angel Moroni, according to Joseph misquotes scripture by changing verses entirely. This should have been a clear sign that it was false. The "angel" versions are significantly different. 4. Joseph told pastors of his vision, but the pastors he told flatly refused to acknowledge that visions could even occur. (Making it regrettably impossible for him to seek spiritual guidance) -------------------- My main question is this focused on my 3rd objection above. #### "According to the account Joseph as a young man knew the scriptures, despite this he allowed an angel that he knew **changed a text from the Bible** to guide him. How do members of the church of latter day saints reconcile for this direct sin performed by the angel Moroni? >36 After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old Testament. He first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi; and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, **though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles**. Instead of quoting the first verse as it reads in our books, he quoted it thus: > > 37 For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall **burn** as stubble; for **they that come shall** burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Compare with: "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." (Malachi 4:1 or Malachi 3:19) ----------- > 38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will **reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of** Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Compare with: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:" (Malachi 4:5 or Malachi 3:24) ----------------- Changing verses is a sin, and the angel Moroni did it, and Joseph noticed and recorded it officially. > “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deut. 4:2.) I understand the LDS response to this already, if the first vision and angel are valid from God, then there is no issue. But the angel sinned according to the account, by changing the scriptures... > We have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, **nor do we distort the word of God.** On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. (2 Corinthians 4:2). > “**Your word**, LORD, **is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens**” (Psalm 119:89). > “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but **the word of our God endures forever**” (Isaiah 40:8). > “Heaven and earth will pass away, but **my words will never pass away**” (Matthew 24:35)

Within the theology of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Great Apostacy is held to. The Great Apostacy is primarily identified by the loss, or removal, of priesthood keys and authority from the earth. I can't find any specifics from a church source on when this occurred. Does anyone know of any detailed explanation on when the apostacy occurred? I'd like to give an idea as to why that is the case, and encourage members to poke holes in it if possible. In our theology, the Apostles hold all the keys of the priesthood, which constitute the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction. Sometimes the Apostles delegate those keys. For example, "Bishops hold the priesthood keys to lead the work of the Church in the ward" (local congregation) (source ). "A bishop is called by inspiration of the Lord and ordained by a stake president under the direction of the First Presidency of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve."(source ) *In the absence of keys held by apostles, there can be no ordination of bishops. A bishop does not hold the keys to authorize the ordination of successor bishop (**this seems to be the key claim**).* As it relates to the Great Apostacy, once the Apostles are all gone, the keys to direct bishop ordination are gone. A bishop could be ordained and alive at the time the last Apostle is taken, and he could ordain others to offices in the Aaronic priesthood, but once he dies the keys he was delegated are gone. So it may be true that holders of the priesthood are alive at the time the last apostle was taken, but within the next 100 years or so, no living key holder will be left and soon following no authoritative ordination will be possible. This seems to be the reason we can't pin a date down, we don't know when the last priesthood holder died. Thoughts?

### Introduction Joseph Smith is the founder of Mormonism and considered to be an a prophet of God by the LDS Church. Latter Day Saints believe that the Christian bible (Old and New Testaments) predicts the coming of Joseph Smith , that he brought forth the Book of Mormon, restored a lost priesthood, and established the true church. On the other hand, non-LDS Christians call Smith a false prophet and accuse him of theological fraud. ### Question What reasons do non-LDS Christians give for calling Joseph Smith a "false prophet"? What criteria do they use to determine Joseph Smith is not a true Christian prophet?

A recent question and an older question have accrued several answers with 'false' prophecies of Joseph Smith. Below is a compilation of them: 1. D&C 84:2-5,31 Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith's Generation >2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. > >3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. > >4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. > >5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house. > >31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses—for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed 2. D&C 87:1-3 1832 Joseph Smith prophesied that the United States civil war would eventually engulf all nations >1 Verily, **thus saith the Lord** concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; > >2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. > >3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations. 3. History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 182 1835 Joseph Smith prophesied the Lord’s return within 56 years >President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending while journeying to Zion—our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene. 4. History of the Church, vol. 5, pg. 394 1843 Joseph Smith prophesied that the United States government would be overthrown and wasted within a few years if they refused to redress the wrongs committed against the Mormons in Missouri >**I prophesy in the name of the Lord God** of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left 5. D&C 114:1 Apr 1838 David Patten would go on a mission (he died October 1838 before he could) >1 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world. 6. History of the Church, vol 6, p 116 1843 >While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government How do LDS explain how Joseph Smith is a prophet when there are false prophecies?

Most of the Mormon missionaries I've encountered are young men doing a couple year stint. They are typically identified as "elders", but my understanding is that this designation is only temporary during their time of service. How is the LDS use of this term similar or different than the office of elder in mainstream Protestant circles? Does their designation as elders give them any ruling authority over the church body or is their role strictly to work with non members?

> "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." - Isaiah 43:10 (KJV) In King Follett Sermon, Joseph Smith teaches that members of the LDS church may too become gods one day: **Eternal Life to Know God and Jesus Christ (King Follett Sermon)** > The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me. Moreover; we are aware that the Church of Latter Day Saints believes that the Godhead (Father Son & Holy Ghost) are three separate gods sharing the same will. > Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct > roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united > in bringing to pass Heavenly Father's divine plan of salvation. > > [Godhead (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)](https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead) Also; **Abraham 4** teaches creation was committed by multiple gods. > 1. And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. With this in mind; How does the Church of Latter Day Saints interpret Isaiah 43:10? Bonus points if the verse is kept in context.

According to Mormon doctrine, Resurrected beings have physical bodies that can only be in one place at one time, which is why the Holy Ghost remains a spirit, so that he can dwell in the hearts of men: > "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son > also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a > personage of Spirit. **Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in > us.**" (D&C 130:22 , *emphasis added*) It appears to me that some form of power or ability is *lost* at the resurrection. An essential power that only spirits have, which resurrected beings do not, hence the necessity of the Holy Ghost remaining a spirit. It seems somewhat paradoxical to me that we would have anything to *lose* at the resurrection–if anyone understands what I'm trying to communicate by phrasing it that way... Obviously the Holy Ghost is going to be resurrected at some point (I feel it's safe to assume so at least), at which point in time he will forfeit the power that makes his role in the Godhead essential, and receive a resurrected body. My question is, what exactly is this power that the Father and Christ cannot wield as resurrected beings? Or where do I err in my pondering or phrasing of my question?

Is there a reason why female Mormon missionaries wear such varied dresses but male Mormon missionaries wear uniforms? I see male missionaries often. They are easily recognizable, because they all wear uniform outfits - white t-shirt, black pants, and a clean tie to finish. When I go on the Mormon site, the dress code for men seems more varied than what I previously thought, and the dress code for women is not only more varied but also more colorful and vibrant. My question is, is this true? Do Mormon missionary women get to wear more varied and colorful clothing than Mormon missionary men? And why do the men on the website wear more varied clothing with different-colored ties but the men on the street wear *exactly* the same style?

All three believe Jesus is not God, there is no Trinity as understood by traditional Christians, yet at the same time Jesus is the Messiah, the word of God, born of the virgin Mary, and accept the Torah and gospel accounts. Jesus is the Messiah, and word of God (but Trinity is wrong): https://quran.com/4/171?translations=95,101,85,20,18,22,19,17 > O People of the Book! Do not go to extremes regarding your faith; say nothing about Allah except the truth.1 The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfilment of His Word through Mary and a spirit ˹created by a command˺ from Him.2 So believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, “Trinity.” Stop!—for your own good. Allah is only One God. Glory be to Him! He is far above having a son! To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And Allah is sufficient as a Trustee of Affairs. Jesus fulfills the Torah, and brings the gospel: https://quran.com/en/al-maidah/46 >Then in the footsteps of the prophets, We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light and confirming what was revealed in the Torah—a guide and a lesson to the God-fearing. Virgin birth (and immaculate conception?): https://quran.com/en/at-tahrim/12 > ˹There is˺ also ˹the example of˺ Mary, the daughter of ’Imrân, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her ˹womb˺ through Our angel ˹Gabriel˺.1 She testified to the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the ˹sincerely˺ devout. In the case of Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, this is sufficient for them to be considered Christians, but in the case of Muslims, they are considered a foreign religion. What explains this difference in categorization? A corollary, is there a list of minimal beliefs that categorizes a group as Christian or non-Christian, which would categorize Jesus' disciples as Christian? In older times, according to John of Damascus , it seems Islam was considered a Christian heresy, not a separate religion. >From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Based on my limited knowledge of medieval theology, it does seem like Islam (along with Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses) would be considered a form of Arianism.

Rather than busting out a KJV and a JST and comparing them verse by verse I am lazily hoping that there is, somewhere, a list which has already been generated providing all of the verses from the Bible which the JST has modified or allegedly 'restored'?

Mormons receive something called a "patriarchal blessing" during which they are sorted into one of the 12 tribes of Israel. - Where did this practice originate? - What do these tribe assignments signify to Mormons? Do Mormons use these assignments for anything?

### Background Latter Day Saints believe that "plain and precious truths" were lost from the Bible : > Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that **there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book**, which is the book of the Lamb of God. - (**1 Nephi 13:28**) LDS/Non-LDS Christian disputations often center on apparent discrepancies between the Christian Bible vs Mormon scriptures. ### Question If LDS believe important information that corroborates the Book of Mormon and Mormon beliefs were lost from the Christian Bible, are LDS and non-LDS Christian disputes always talking past one another? Can scriptural arguments ever be employed against a belief system like Latter Day Saint theology which always has the "escape hatch" of 1 Nephi 13:28?

Mormons appear to believe that Jesus is the literal, physical offspring of their "Heavenly Father" and "Heavenly Mother". What do they believe about how Jesus was born to a human mother? Do they believe that Jesus's human mother, Mary is distinct from "Heavenly Mother"? How did Mary come to be pregnant in Mormon theology?

### LDS Prophecy Joseph Smith made the following prophecy predicting a temple to be built in Independence, Missouri: Doctrines and Covenants 84:5 : > For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house. No LDS temple was ever constructed in Independence, and Mormons were driven out of the state. Non-LDS Christians point to this prophecy as a clear example of Joseph Smith failing the Deuteronomic test of a prophet . On the other hand, LDS Christians offer numerous explanations for this apparent discrepancy: - The prophecy was conditional, and was delayed because the Mormons were not faithful - "This generation" does not refer to a generation of people but to an age or dispensation - "This generation" does not refer to the generation of Joseph Smith's contemporaries, but to a later group - The prophecy did actually come true in the 19th century, because the "house" in 84:5 referred to the temple built in Kirtland, OH four years after the prophecy ### Gospel Prophecy The gospel of Matthew records another disputed prophecy: Matthew 24:29-34 : >29 Immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. > >30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. > >31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. > >32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. > >33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. > >34 **Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place**. The apocalyptic events described in 24:29-31 did not occur within the lifetime of the listeners. The sun did not stop shining, and the 'Son of Man' did not appear in the clouds of heaven. Christians offer numerous explanations for this prophecy: - The prophecy was conditional on the people of Israel 'repenting' and accepting Jesus, and was delayed because this did not occur - "This generation" does not refer to a generation of people, but to a specific 'race' of people - "This generation" does not refer to the generation of Jesus's contemporaries, but to a later group - The prophecy did actually come true in the 1st Century when Jerusalem was destroyed (the 'Preterist' position') ### Question LDS Christians offer several resolutions for Joseph Smith's apparent prophetic mistake, and these explanations seem to have significant overlap with Christian explanations of Matthew 24. How do non-LDS Christians who reject D&C 84 as a false prophecy defend using the same explanations that Mormons do?

I was looking for information on whether, according to the LDS Church, the "days" in Genesis chapter 1 are literal 24-hour days or something else. I found this article at lds.org (aimed at a younger readership though) which states that > The Creation took six days and was done by Jesus Christ under the > direction of Heavenly Father. That seems to indicate that Mormons view those days as being 24-hour days. 1. Do Mormons view the creation days in Genesis chapter 1 as literal 24-hour days? 2. Or are they viewed as representing some other length of time?

In 1842, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) acquired writings in Egyptian hieroglyphics.These writings were genuine hieroglyphs and were the bases for his translation, the Book of Abraham (see sample in Wikipedia). But, after the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, linguists ascertained that Joseph Smith's translation of the hieroglyphs was not only inaccurate, but better described as fraudulent. His hieroglyphs contained no theological information and nothing about the biblical Patriarch Abraham. Thus,the main question arises,if Joseph Smith fraudulently translated his Book of Abraham, then what is the probability that he also committed fraud in his Book of Mormon, the very centerpiece of LDS?

Inspired by [my answer here](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/104930/10672) , I wonder how the LDS church celebrates Jesus's Passion, Crucifixion, and Resurrection in terms of liturgies and/or practices during the Holy Week. How does it compare with the Catholic liturgies for the [Paschal Triduum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_Triduum) which include the following liturgies to help the faithful to internalize what Jesus went through during the defining moments of his life since we believers are **in union with Him** in suffering, death, and resurrection? - **Holy Thursday mass** on Thursday evening (the stripping of the altar followed with a solemn procession to the [altar of repose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altar_of_repose)) - **Good Friday mass** (without the glory and without consecration) - **Easter Vigil** (focusing on the Paschal candle being the light that shines in the darkness) - **Easter Sunday** (celebrating the resurrection with special readings, hymns, and prayers, first day of the [Easter Octave](https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/easter-octave/)) See this article [*Liturgical Highlights: Holy Week and the Sacred Triduum*](https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/liturgical-highlights-holy-week-and-sacred-triduum/) for details and examples on how the faithful prepare for the liturgies at home and at church.

From the answer to another question , someone suggested that the LDS (Mormon) church teaches that Jesus is distinct from God—that though He is a part of the Godhead, the Godhead is not a Trinity defined by the "Three-in-One" idea. What specifically, then, does the LDS Church teach about who Jesus is and where He came from? Is He eternal, not eternal, uncreated, created?

For members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Is Jesus a created being? What is the official church doctrine in relation to this? John 1:3 states "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." In light of this verse, what would be the LDS resolution of the biblical data? Please provide LDS scripture references or quotes from latter day prophets and apostles. If you are not LDS and attempt to answer for them, the same source is required of you. An obscure quote of the personal belief of a single individual is not sufficient to claim a thing is an official teaching/doctrine of The Church.