Christianity
Q&A for committed Christians, experts in Christianity and those interested in learning more
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When did the Great Apostacy start according to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Within the theology of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Great Apostacy is held to. The Great Apostacy is primarily identified by the loss, or removal, of priesthood keys and authority from the earth. I can't find any specifics from a church source on when this occurred. Does an...
Within the theology of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Great Apostacy is held to. The Great Apostacy is primarily identified by the loss, or removal, of priesthood keys and authority from the earth. I can't find any specifics from a church source on when this occurred. Does anyone know of any detailed explanation on when the apostacy occurred?
I'd like to give an idea as to why that is the case, and encourage members to poke holes in it if possible.
In our theology, the Apostles hold all the keys of the priesthood, which constitute the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction. Sometimes the Apostles delegate those keys. For example, "Bishops hold the priesthood keys to lead the work of the Church in the ward" (local congregation) (source ). "A bishop is called by inspiration of the Lord and ordained by a stake president under the direction of the First Presidency of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve."(source )
*In the absence of keys held by apostles, there can be no ordination of bishops. A bishop does not hold the keys to authorize the ordination of successor bishop (**this seems to be the key claim**).*
As it relates to the Great Apostacy, once the Apostles are all gone, the keys to direct bishop ordination are gone. A bishop could be ordained and alive at the time the last Apostle is taken, and he could ordain others to offices in the Aaronic priesthood, but once he dies the keys he was delegated are gone. So it may be true that holders of the priesthood are alive at the time the last apostle was taken, but within the next 100 years or so, no living key holder will be left and soon following no authoritative ordination will be possible.
This seems to be the reason we can't pin a date down, we don't know when the last priesthood holder died.
Thoughts?
Jacob Nordstrom
(51 rep)
Jul 2, 2025, 03:00 PM
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What sect(s) teach that apostasy is unforgivable?
Imagine Bob. Bob was, at some point, Christian. Perhaps he was raised that way, or perhaps he came to faith later in life, but at some point, he was confirmed, communing regularly, professing Christ, and has felt God's Presence in his life. Then, something happened. Some event caused Bob to turn awa...
Imagine Bob. Bob was, at some point, Christian. Perhaps he was raised that way, or perhaps he came to faith later in life, but at some point, he was confirmed, communing regularly, professing Christ, and has felt God's Presence in his life.
Then, something happened. Some event caused Bob to turn away from Christ to pursue a different path. Maybe the breakup was public, or maybe it was just in the privacy of his heart, but at minimum, Bob said to God, "go away; I don't need or want you".
----
A certain user cited Hebrews 6:4-6, claiming that Bob, having apostatized, can no longer be redeemed:
> 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (KJV)
However, this seems contrary not only to Scripture (with God, all things are possible), but to God's own nature (God is patient, wanting everyone to be saved). Indeed, most sects as far as I can tell teach that there is no sin from which one cannot repent, and that it is only by remaining in sin that one cuts *one's self* off from Salvation, essentially by refusing to accept the free gift.
Logically, moreover, this teaching would suggest to Bob that God despises him and that not only should he not bother to seek God, he might as well do all he can to be God's enemy since he has nothing to lose.
**Which sect(s) teach that one who has fallen off the path cannot be called back?**
Matthew
(12382 rep)
May 27, 2025, 04:14 PM
• Last activity: May 28, 2025, 10:30 PM
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What is the Catholic interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3?
The English translation of 2 Thes. 2:3 according to [New American Bible, Revised Edition][1]: > 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, NAB, 2011 The Greek text of 2 Thes. 2:3 according to the Textus Recep...
The English translation of 2 Thes. 2:3 according to New American Bible, Revised Edition :
>3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, NAB, 2011
The Greek text of 2 Thes. 2:3 according to the Textus Receptus states,
>Γ μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας TR, 1550
For the purpose of this question which requests an answer from Catholics, let us assume Catholicism represents the true Christian faith.
1. Has the “the apostasy” (ἡ ἀποστασία) already occurred? If so, what is it, and when did it occur?
2. If not, what criteria would the Pope and magisterium use to identify the apostasy when it occurs?
3. Has “the man of sin, the son of perditionÌ (ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας) been revealed? If so, who is he, and when was he revealed?
4. If not, again, what criteria would the Pope and magisterium use to identify this individual when he is revealed?
*Note*: The text seems to imply that “the apostasy” is not simply one individual’s apostasy, as individuals have been apostasizing since the beginning of the Church. Rather, it appears more evident, easily discernable, not *en masse*, but certainly more than a handful of individuals apostasizing from the Catholic Church (assuming the Catholic Church is the Church, the body of Christ).
Der Übermensch
(549 rep)
Jan 3, 2015, 05:23 AM
• Last activity: May 4, 2025, 04:52 AM
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What are some Protestant positions on the verses about apostasy?
How do the different Protestant denominations interpret these verses? Is it in the light of apostasy that happened in the 1st Century? Right before Luther? A general principle of being aware to no fall away presently? **Acts 20:29-30** >29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolv...
How do the different Protestant denominations interpret these verses? Is it in the light of apostasy that happened in the 1st Century? Right before Luther? A general principle of being aware to no fall away presently?
**Acts 20:29-30**
>29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
>
>30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
**2 Thessalonians 2:1-4**
>1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
>
>2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
>
>3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
>
>4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
**2 Timothy 4:3-4**
>3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
>
>4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
**2 Peter 2:1-3**
>1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
>
>2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
>
>3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Are these verses seen as not general apostasy? These seem to teach of immediate apostasy in the 1st Century, but I am curious about the differing views in Protestantism. I understand that there may even be different interpretations for each reference here.
Jayson
(39 rep)
Mar 17, 2025, 02:30 PM
• Last activity: Mar 18, 2025, 01:19 PM
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Does the Bible suggest that there would be a literal apostasy of the early Christian church?
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Acts 20:29 I interpret them to mean that there would be a literal apostasy of the early Christian church or is there another meaning to them that I am missing? >2 Thessalonians 2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falli...
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Acts 20:29 I interpret them to mean that there would be a literal apostasy of the early Christian church or is there another meaning to them that I am missing?
>2 Thessalonians 2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
>
> Acts 20:29: For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Nelson
(1564 rep)
Dec 30, 2013, 03:51 AM
• Last activity: Aug 15, 2024, 01:04 PM
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What is apostasy (John 15) in Lutheranism?
In contrast to the *Reformed* tradition, it it the best of my understating, that Lutherans hold in election unto salvation for all who all in Christ, yet also hold that individuals, because of their own fault and will, can turn away fro the faith and lose their salvation. This being the reason for a...
In contrast to the *Reformed* tradition, it it the best of my understating, that Lutherans hold in election unto salvation for all who all in Christ, yet also hold that individuals, because of their own fault and will, can turn away fro the faith and lose their salvation.
This being the reason for all the warnings and admonitions in the Bible.
One example would be John 15, where Jesus says that anyone who does not abide in his word, will be cut off.
Given all that, what does apostasy mean in Lutheranism? Is it someone who utterly rejects Christ, or is it anyone caught up in habitual sin, like for example adultery or gambling, etc.
Dan
(2194 rep)
Oct 27, 2022, 07:04 AM
• Last activity: Mar 25, 2024, 12:38 AM
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On the quantity defecting in the Great Apostasy?
On p. 230 of Fr. F. W. Faber's [*The Precious Blood*](https://ia802601.us.archive.org/21/items/a5807812fabe00uoft/a5807812fabe00uoft.pdf), we find the words: >In the days of Antichrist, when two-thirds even of the faithful shall fall away from the Church. Now, "a revolt" is spoken about in [2 Thess....
On p. 230 of Fr. F. W. Faber's [*The Precious Blood*](https://ia802601.us.archive.org/21/items/a5807812fabe00uoft/a5807812fabe00uoft.pdf) , we find the words:
>In the days of Antichrist, when two-thirds even of the faithful shall fall away from the Church.
Now, "a revolt" is spoken about in [2 Thess. 2:3](https://www.drbo.org/chapter/60002.htm) , which, I surmise, is what Fr. Faber is referring to.
Can someone shed some light as to where the "two-thirds" figure may have come from? Can it be biblically inferred?
DDS
(3256 rep)
Jan 11, 2024, 02:34 PM
• Last activity: Jan 12, 2024, 01:30 AM
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What's the difference between apostasy and heresy?
[Apostasy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy) >Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία apostasía, 'a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be d...
[Apostasy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy)
>Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία apostasía, 'a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion that is contrary to one's previous religious beliefs. One who undertakes apostasy is known as an apostate. Undertaking apostasy is called apostatizing (or apostasizing – also spelled apostacizing). The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean the renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense, with no pejorative connotation. ~ Wikipedia
[Heresy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy)
>Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs, in particular the accepted beliefs of a church or religious organization. The term is usually used in reference to violations of important religious teachings, but is also used of views strongly opposed to any generally accepted ideas. A heretic is a proponent of heresy. ~Wikipedia
Is it possible to be a heretic and not an apostate and vice versa? What about in other religions like Islam?
Hudjefa
(141 rep)
Dec 16, 2022, 05:33 PM
• Last activity: Dec 17, 2022, 03:27 PM
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According to the LDS, when did the “true church” cease to exist?
I was recently engaging with an LDS user on this site who said the true church fell away very early. How early was this? Does the church have official teaching on it and why did it happen?
I was recently engaging with an LDS user on this site who said the true church fell away very early. How early was this? Does the church have official teaching on it and why did it happen?
Luke Hill
(5538 rep)
May 31, 2022, 05:16 PM
• Last activity: Jun 1, 2022, 11:28 PM
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What are the major arguments Protestants make for the Catholic Church being apostate?
What are the major arguments Protestants make for the Catholic Church being an apostate church?
What are the major arguments Protestants make for the Catholic Church being an apostate church?
Only True God
(6934 rep)
May 23, 2022, 07:35 PM
• Last activity: May 24, 2022, 07:46 AM
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How do proponents of Perseverance of the Saints have confidence in their salvation?
I was listening to a debate between Trent Horn and James White on the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. In it, Trent Horn presented an argument to demonstrate that those who hold to the doctrine can’t know if they are saved. One argument against the perseverance of the saints is the citati...
I was listening to a debate between Trent Horn and James White on the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. In it, Trent Horn presented an argument to demonstrate that those who hold to the doctrine can’t know if they are saved.
One argument against the perseverance of the saints is the citation of the thousands of people who have appeared to be fully involved in Christianity and then walked away from the faith.
What the person who adheres to the PoS will do to defuse these stories is to say those people were never saved in the first place. But that means we can’t have confidence that any of us are saved, despite the fruit we exhibit! But the Bible says we can have confidence in our salvation, so PoS must be false.
For a syllogistic form, see below.
1. If PoS is true, then any person *x* who exhibited belief in Christianity but walked away later was never a Christian.
2. For any person *p* who adheres to PoS, they could be a person *x*.
3. Thus, that person *p* cannot have confidence in their salvation.
4. The Bible says we can have confidence in our salvation. (1 John 5:13)
5. Thus, PoS is false.
Luke Hill
(5538 rep)
May 9, 2022, 04:42 PM
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How do believers in the Great Apostasy reconcile their views with Matthew 16:18?
From the Wikipedia article on [the Great Apostasy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Apostasy): > The Great Apostasy is a concept within Christianity, identifiable at least from the time of the Reformation, to describe a perception that the early apostolic Church has fallen away from the original...
From the Wikipedia article on [the Great Apostasy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Apostasy) :
> The Great Apostasy is a concept within Christianity, identifiable at least from the time of the Reformation, to describe a perception that the early apostolic Church has fallen away from the original faith founded by Jesus and promulgated through his twelve Apostles. Protestants used the term to describe the perceived fallen state of traditional Christianity, especially the Catholic Church, because they claim it changed the doctrines of the early church and allowed traditional Greco-Roman culture (i.e., Greco-Roman mysteries, deities of solar monism such as Mithras and Sol Invictus, pagan festivals and Mithraic sun worship and idol worship) into the church on its own perception of authority. Because it made these changes using claims of tradition and not from scripture, the church – in the opinion of those adhering to this concept – has fallen into apostasy. A major thread of this perception is the suggestion that, to attract and convert people to Christianity, the church in Rome incorporated pagan beliefs and practices within the Christian religion, mostly Graeco-Roman rituals, mysteries, and festivals. For example, Easter has been described as a pagan substitute for the Jewish Passover, although neither Jesus nor his Apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival.
>
> The term is derived from the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, in which the Apostle Paul informs the Christians of Thessalonica that a great apostasy must occur before the return of Christ, when "the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction" (chapter 2:1–12). The Catholic Church, Anglican Church, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches have interpreted this chapter as referring to a future falling-away, during the reign of the Antichrist at the end of time.
However, Jesus said:
> And I tell you that you are Peter, and **on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.** (Matthew 16:18 BSB)
**Question**: According to believers in the Great Apostasy of the Church, how can there be a Great Apostasy if the Church is built on a rock against which the gates of Hades shall not prevail?
user50422
Apr 16, 2022, 12:53 PM
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What are the most common reasons that cause Christians to deconvert to atheism/agnosticism?
- What are the most common reasons that cause Christians to lose their faith and turn to atheism, agnosticism or skepticism? - Are these reasons only effective against young Christians? What about pastors, priests, elders, evangelists, missionaries, etc.? Are long-time committed Christians also vuln...
- What are the most common reasons that cause Christians to lose their faith and turn to atheism, agnosticism or skepticism?
- Are these reasons only effective against young Christians? What about pastors, priests, elders, evangelists, missionaries, etc.? Are long-time committed Christians also vulnerable to have their faith "shaken" by these reasons?
I think these are important questions to answer, especially with so many atheist activists spreading skepticism and atheism nowadays. Wikipedia has an informative [list of atheist activists and educators](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheist_activists_and_educators) . There are also the ["Four Horsemen of the New Atheism"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism#%22Four_Horsemen%22) , namely, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris. In social media we also find lots of content producers who spread agnosticism, atheism and skeptical ways of thinking. For example, on YouTube I'm familiar with [Genetically Modified Skeptic](https://www.youtube.com/c/GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic/featured) (458K subscribers), [CosmicSkeptic](https://www.youtube.com/c/CosmicSkeptic) (446K subscribers), [The Atheist Experience](https://www.youtube.com/user/TheAtheistExperience) (365K subscribers), [Rationality Rules](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqZMgLgGlYAWvSU8lZ9xiVg) (296K subscribers), [AronRa](https://www.youtube.com/c/AronRa) (263K subscribers) and [Bart D. Ehrman](https://www.youtube.com/c/bartdehrman) (83K subscribers). Here is [a list with the top 50 atheist YouTube channels](https://blog.feedspot.com/atheist_youtube_channels/) .
____________
EDIT: [For legacy reasons.] This question originally had a third dot point which was removed to make it more focused. However, before the question was closed a user managed to post an answer where a big chunk of it addresses this third point. Therefore, I'm keeping it below for legacy reasons only. Future answerers may feel free to completely ignore it if they wish.
> - What measures (if any) are Christian churches taking to counteract these reasons for deconversion? Do any Christian churches or organizations teach people how to have an unshakable faith, even in the face of the most challenging objections?
user50422
Oct 27, 2021, 01:12 PM
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Why did Jesus raise people from the dead, when they would have been in heaven?
The way I understand it from the bible is that you can live well you entire life, but if you lose your faith and then you die you won't go to heaven. So I'm sure that Satan would love the ability to raise people from the dead, take them out of heaven and get another chance to win them over. Yet Jesu...
The way I understand it from the bible is that you can live well you entire life, but if you lose your faith and then you die you won't go to heaven. So I'm sure that Satan would love the ability to raise people from the dead, take them out of heaven and get another chance to win them over. Yet Jesus (our saviour) seems to be the one doing exactly that.
E.g. Mark 5 describes how Jesus raised Jairus' daughter from the dead. However at her death is she not in heaven? Is Jesus not doing her a disservice by raising her from the dead and giving Satan another chance to get her?
And I suppose the same goes for curing deadly deceases.
Edit: I did not know that nobody had gone to heaven before Jesus' resurrection. However I think my question is still relevant, it would just change my question to: When Jairus' daughter died, was she not guaranteed a place in heaven?
YBStolker
(31 rep)
Sep 22, 2021, 07:19 AM
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According to LDS, what principles of the gospel were corrupted in the Great Apostasy?
[In the LDS.org article on Apostasy][1], **the Great Apostasy** is described in the following terms: > After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, **men corrupted the principles of the gospel** and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Leaving aside the sec...
In the LDS.org article on Apostasy , **the Great Apostasy** is described in the following terms:
> After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, **men corrupted the principles of the gospel** and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances.
Leaving aside the second part of the equation dealing with Church organization and priesthood ordinances, how exactly do Latter Day Saints believe the principles of the gospel were corrupted?
**By way of background:** I've had a couple of conversations with LDS (current or former missionaries) over the last year or so, where they have sought to emphasize the broad agreement with essential beliefs with other Christians. I find it hard to reconcile this with the LDS doctrine about the Great Apostasy and am trying to understand what they really meant. Is a de-emphasis of fundamental soteriological differences recommended as part of engaging with other traditions, or is the view on the "Great Apostasy" that is not that significant with regard to an understanding of the fundamentals of soteriological doctrine?
bruised reed
(12676 rep)
Jul 21, 2015, 01:34 PM
• Last activity: Jul 14, 2021, 12:34 AM
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Was the matter of whether the Christians who had renounced their faith under torture should be accepted back considered in the First Council?
Was the question of whether to accept back into the Church those who, under torture, renounced their Christian faith, was considered at the First Ecumenical Council of 325? [The wiki page on the First Council][1] only mentions "lapsed Christians", but that could mean those who had willingly renounce...
Was the question of whether to accept back into the Church those who, under torture, renounced their Christian faith, was considered at the First Ecumenical Council of 325?
The wiki page on the First Council only mentions "lapsed Christians", but that could mean those who had willingly renounced their faith or had developed some "wrong" branch in it, thus, becoming heretics, both of which cases are not torture-related.
brilliant
(10250 rep)
Feb 2, 2021, 03:36 AM
• Last activity: Feb 2, 2021, 02:17 PM
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Calvinism: alternatives to evanescent grace?
It appears to me that the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" contain a practical contradiction. The T in TULIP states that the reprobate (and even the unregenerate elect) are zealous in their hatred of God. The reprobate completely and totally despise God with their words, thoughts, actions, etc. The P...
It appears to me that the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" contain a practical contradiction. The T in TULIP states that the reprobate (and even the unregenerate elect) are zealous in their hatred of God. The reprobate completely and totally despise God with their words, thoughts, actions, etc. The P in TULIP states that all of God's elect will be regenerated and will persevere in faith unto death. Now these two points do not seem contradictory in and of themselves, but what of the subject of apostasy? From Biblical texts and our own experience, we come to understand that some people who appear to love God eventually lose interest for one reason or another and fall away from the faith. Jesus even speaks of such people, who accept the gospel with great joy, only to eventually fall back into the world because they get busy and distracted with the cares of daily life.
It is a typical Calvinist response to simply say that those people were never saved to begin with. Fair enough, but if they were never saved, then they were never regenerate, and if they were never regenerate then they must experience vicious hatred towards God according to TULIP's T. So what would compel a reprobate hater of God to go to church, read their Bible, pray fervently, ask God for forgiveness of sins, get baptized, etc. These do not seem to be actions of people who despise God. Why would a reprobate man experience joy upon hearing the gospel, as Jesus plainly stated?
To Calvin's credit, he attempted to plug this hole by coming up with a doctrine called evanescent grace. Roughly speaking, God in his good pleasure, actively causes a deception to fall upon some reprobate men, which gives them a fleeting desire to worship him and follow Christ. However, this false faith is never the 'real deal' and at the appointed time, God removes the illusion and leaves the man in a worse state than he began. This gives God all the more justification to judge the man to death and condemnation.
Understandably, Calvinists do not appear to have endeared themselves to this doctrine. I'd venture to say that many Calvinists have never ever heard of it. But if a Calvinist does not subscribe to evanescent grace, then there must be some other explanation as to what would compel a God-hating reprobate to praise the name of Jesus Christ, even if only for a limited period of time. What explanations, other than evanescent grace, have Calvinists posited to solve this seeming contradiction in their theology?
> Our natural, fallen inner disposition is to hate the God of the Bible – the true and living God who created us – and to replace Him with gods (or “concepts of god”) more to our liking. -- http://lakeopc.net/2017/calvinism-101-total-depravity/
>
> Total Depravity means that every sinner is possessed with a nature, inherited from Adam's fall, that is completely hostile toward God. We were all born with a "positive" aversion to God and His authority. By nature, every sinner wants "his own way." Romans 8:7 makes this fact very clear. "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so." -- https://www.monergism.com/doctrine-total-depravity
>
> But a man who is totally depraved can not will to be saved. He hates God and wants nothing to do with Christ's death. So it must not be said that Christ died for all men. -- http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html
pr871
(397 rep)
Jun 28, 2019, 10:59 PM
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According to Catholicism, what particular truth will the great apostasy deny?
>[_CCC_ 675][1] Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of religious deception offering men an apparent solution to...
>_CCC_ 675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.
There are many Church teachings about the "Truth" taught by Jesus Christ in the gospel and other "Truth" handed by the Apostles as Sacred Tradition and deposited to the Church.
Is there a Catholic teachings or explanation on what particular "Truth" where apostasy will be committed?
jong ricafort
(1 rep)
Sep 24, 2019, 11:59 PM
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Are the Dubia Cardinal's committing the Great Apostasy in contradicting Church teachings on the Mercy of God?
The Dubia Cardinals are publicly opposing and contradicting the approved Magisterial Teaching of Pope Francis like the Amoris Laetetia and [CCC 2267], the Fraternal Agreement with the Muslims, and also the "Instrumentum Laboris" a working document on the Pan Amazon Bishop Synod. [New Revision of Num...
The Dubia Cardinals are publicly opposing and contradicting the approved Magisterial Teaching of Pope Francis like the Amoris Laetetia and [CCC 2267], the Fraternal Agreement with the Muslims, and also the "Instrumentum Laboris" a working document on the Pan Amazon Bishop Synod. [New Revision of Number 2267 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Death Penalty “Ex Audientia SS.MI”](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20180801_catechismo-penadimorte_en.html) . Even criticizing the Magisterial Teachings as "false mercy".
[Canon 752](http://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib3-cann747-755_en.html)
and [Donum Veritatis](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19900524_theologian-vocation_en.html) guidelines are very clear but the Dubia Cardinals continues to ignore and violate this Church Canon and evangelical guidelines on all theologians seeking clarifications or expressing their dissent. Even Cardinal Muller in 2017 had warned the Dubia Cardinals not to go public in expressing their dissent.
link; The card Müller: "Amoris Laetitia is clear in the doctrine, the dubia are of no use".
[Il card. Müller: «Amoris Laetitia è chiara nella dottrina, i dubia non servono»](https://www.uccronline.it/2017/01/09/il-card-muller-fedele-alleato-di-bergoglio-e-di-ratzinger/)
The two papal encyclicals coming from Pope St. John Paul II [Dives in Misercordia](http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_30111980_dives-in-misericordia.html) ; and Pope Francis Bull of Indiction [Misericordiae Vultus](http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_letters/documents/papa-francesco_bolla_20150411_misericordiae-vultus.html) .
Pope Francis was inspired to open the Door of God's Infinite Mercy but the Dubia Cardinals are closing the Door of Mercy on LGBTQ and couples in irregular union, convicted criminals, and now on the Pan Amazonian indigenous people.
St. John Paul II warn us of the false prophet or the wolves will preach the "anti-gospel".
What is the gospel?
Pope Benedict XVI said "the heart of the gospel is Divine Mercy" and Pope Francis in Misericordiae Vultus paragraph 12 said;
>"12. The Church is commissioned to announce the mercy of God, the beating heart of the Gospel, which in its own way must penetrate the heart and mind of every person. The Spouse of Christ must pattern her behaviour after the Son of God who went out to everyone without exception. In the present day, as the Church is charged with the task of the new evangelization, the theme of mercy needs to be proposed again and again with new enthusiasm and renewed pastoral action. It is absolutely essential for the Church and for the credibility of her message that she herself live and testify to mercy. Her language and her gestures must transmit mercy, so as to touch the hearts of all people and inspire them once more to find the road that leads to the Father."
>
>Also, Jesus commanded all the Apostles “Be merciful just as your Father is merciful” (Lk 6:36)
The Dubia Cardinals are opposing the very heart of the gospel and preaching the "anti-gospel" by uphelding the justice of God instead of the Mercy of God.
Scriptures clearly teaches the "primacy of mercy over justice".
>James 2:13 New International Version (NIV)
>
>"because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment."(James2:13)
Thus my question is: **Are the Dubia Cardinals committing *"The Great Apostasy"* for opposing the heart of the gospel by closing the Door of Mercy citing the justice of God but ignoring the Infinite Mercy of God on all souls without exception as cited in paragraph 12 of Misericordiae Vultus?**
jong ricafort
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Sep 12, 2019, 10:20 AM
• Last activity: Jul 23, 2020, 01:23 AM
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What is the corruption Mormons believe will infect their church before the second coming?
[Doctrine & Covenants 112:23-26](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/112.23-26?lang=eng#p22) reads (emphasis mine): > Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and **all flesh has become corrupt before my face.** Behold, **ven...
[Doctrine & Covenants 112:23-26](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/112.23-26?lang=eng#p22) reads (emphasis mine):
> Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and **all flesh has become corrupt before my face.** Behold, **vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth,** a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
>
> **And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth,** saith the Lord; first among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
If I read this prophecy correctly, everyone on earth has become corrupted (or unclean, see [1 Nephi 10:21](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/10.21?lang=eng&clang=eng#p20) , etc.) including members of the LDS Church, that this corruption will be the justification for vengeance, and that vengeance will begin with the Church and then proceed to the rest of the Earth.
Which, to simplify, sounds like the Lord will clean His house1 before He cleanses the world.
What do the scriptures2 and/or Church leaders suggest is the corruption the Lord is speaking about?
1 *This revelation was received in 1837, after the 1836 dedication of the Kirtland temple. It could be argued that "house" refers specifically to the Kirtland temple, or temples in general. However, setting aside the fact that the LDS Church no longer owns the Kirtland temple and presupposing the Lord had more in mind that a single geographical location when discussing the need to cleanse people from sin, I'm electing to interpret "My house" as "My church." If scripture or Church leaders suggest otherwise, I'm open to correction.*
2 *The LDS Scriptures include the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.*
JBH
(3993 rep)
Jul 19, 2018, 11:34 PM
• Last activity: Mar 8, 2020, 08:03 AM
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