While having a conversation with a member of the Latter day saints. I did some independent research regarding their official account of the origin of their Faith. I did not see any similar question, if there is one I do apologize. Forgive the long build up to my question, it helps the question be properly understood. It is down below in large friendly letters. :) I found this in "Joseph Smith's History" on a very well designed website, that would display explanations for certain words and even links to specific Bible verses involved. During my reading of the first hand account of events, I intentionally did not bother with any historical details nor look up things to bias my original opinion of the text. ---------- The account does not seem to show that Joseph did anything to confirm that his vision was from God and not from the evil one. I come from an eastern orthodox perspective and it seems that Joseph neglected (perhaps due to his age) 2 out of the 3 things we are supposed to do when confronted by visions of supernatural nature. 1. Challenging the messenger, demons can perfectly imitate even divine figures and loved ones. Even various Orthodox saints were deceived by visions where demons impersonated Christ, saints, or similar. We are supposed to challenge them, who sent them, etc. (Example St. Issac of the caves was tricked into worshiping a demon that another one called Christ) 2. Test the message itself, it should align with scripture if it is from God. (Remember this for the question at the end) 3. Seek guidance from a spiritual leader. --------------- These are the issues (minor and major) that I see from reading it. 1. It seems odd that the vision starts with "overpowering darkness" preventing him from speaking. But that doesn't really pose an issue, especially if Joseph did become freed by calling out to God. 2. In the vision, one being points to the other and says "this is my son", who's son? Lucifer and God both will say that they have a son. The orthodox church accounts of visions have many instances where one demon calls another "Christ" to deceive the recipient. 3. The angel Moroni, according to Joseph misquotes scripture by changing verses entirely. This should have been a clear sign that it was false. The "angel" versions are significantly different. 4. Joseph told pastors of his vision, but the pastors he told flatly refused to acknowledge that visions could even occur. (Making it regrettably impossible for him to seek spiritual guidance) -------------------- My main question is this focused on my 3rd objection above. #### "According to the account Joseph as a young man knew the scriptures, despite this he allowed an angel that he knew **changed a text from the Bible** to guide him. How do members of the church of latter day saints reconcile for this direct sin performed by the angel Moroni? >36 After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old Testament. He first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi; and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, **though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles**. Instead of quoting the first verse as it reads in our books, he quoted it thus: > > 37 For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall **burn** as stubble; for **they that come shall** burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Compare with: "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." (Malachi 4:1 or Malachi 3:19) ----------- > 38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will **reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of** Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Compare with: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:" (Malachi 4:5 or Malachi 3:24) ----------------- Changing verses is a sin, and the angel Moroni did it, and Joseph noticed and recorded it officially. > “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deut. 4:2.) I understand the LDS response to this already, if the first vision and angel are valid from God, then there is no issue. But the angel sinned according to the account, by changing the scriptures... > We have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, **nor do we distort the word of God.** On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. (2 Corinthians 4:2). > “**Your word**, LORD, **is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens**” (Psalm 119:89). > “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but **the word of our God endures forever**” (Isaiah 40:8). > “Heaven and earth will pass away, but **my words will never pass away**” (Matthew 24:35)

## Background Paul is described as a highly educated Pharisee: > I am a Jew born in Tarsus in Cilicia but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated strictly according to our ancestral law, being zealous for God, just as all of you are today. - *Acts of the Apostles 22:3* More zealous than his peers, and his understanding of Judaism exceeded his peers: > I advanced in Judaism beyond many among my people of the same age, for I was far more zealous for the traditions of my ancestors. *Epistle to the Galatians 1:14* The story of his persecution of Christians and subsequent conversion experience is well known. ## Premises 1. Paul was a highly trained Jewish scholar 2. Paul was familiar with messianic prophecies 3. Paul knew about *some* of the claims of early Christians about Jesus (messiahship, resurrection, divinity, etc) Therefore Paul could have evaluated the claims of Christians for himself prior to his supernatural experience. ## Question According to Christians why did Paul, who claimed to have a high knowledge of the Hebrew bible, need a supernatural encounter to believe in Jesus? Wouldn't he have been familiar with the myriad of prophecies which only Jesus could have fulfilled?

Dreams & visions - how do Christians discern between genuine dreams & visions from God and false dreams & visions from a different source (flesh, enemy)? Are there any denominations that teach how to tell the difference between the two? ___ Relevant passages: > 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: > > 17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, **and your young men shall see visions**, **and your old men shall dream dreams**; 18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. 21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ > > (Acts 2:16-21 ESV)​ > 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. **The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure**.” (Daniel 2:45 ESV) > 10 **And when Paul had seen the vision**, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them. (Acts 16:10 ESV)

I've been looking more and more into the Church of later day saints. I'm obviously not a member, but I am curious about them all the same. My question is about how it appears as if the majority of their answers regarding the first vision* or their angel Moroni are sourced from those entities themselves. Edit: *The first vision as far as I know was experienced only by Joseph Smith. https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/91367/how-do-christians-discern-between-genuine-dreams-visions-from-god-and-false-dr I saw this answer regarding how the LDS are supposed to determine if a vision, angel, etc is from good or evil. And I agree that if the original source was valid, it would all be okay. But from my understanding all the sources listed by the LDS answer are in and of themselves from the beliefs delivered by Moroni or aligned with them in new teachings. How does an LDS believer know these teachings are valid in the first place and not trick? (Or is this the faith part?) Edit: For clarity, I'm not asking for the current teachings of the LDS, I'm asking how is the basis of the LDS faith confirmed as "divine" before their teachings confirmed it? For example: An angel gives you a special book, the book says the angel is definitely not evil. (A proves B, B proves A) How do you prove the source is valid without using the source's own claim?

To clarify what I mean by *private revelations*, I'm referring to revelations by God through extra-biblical means, such as prophecies, dreams, and visions. Is the Westminster Confession's doctrine of *Sola Scriptura* incompatible with a continuationist view on private revelations? Some appear to think that the two are incompatible. For example, [Mike Riccardi writing at The Cripple Gate](https://thecripplegate.com/strange-fire-the-puritan-commitment-to-sola-scriptura-steve-lawson/) affirms: > Think of a magnificent, ancient temple and a foundation upon which everything rests. That’s *sola Scriptura*. Everything that we believe, obey, embrace, and hold dear in the convictions of our soul is based upon this foundation of *sola Scriptura*. Rome said, “We accept Scripture, but it is Scripture *and*. Scripture *and* church tradition; Scripture *and* ecclesiastical hierarchies; Scripture *and* the church councils; Scripture *and* papal authority. And the Reformers said, coming back to the Bible, “No, it is *sola Scriptura*: Scripture alone.” And if anything else is added to the foundation of the church, there will be cracks in the foundation and it will not hold up the teaching and the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. **At the same time, they said no to the Anabaptists and the libertines who wanted to add their dreams and visions and new revelations. They said no; it is Scripture *alone***. > > ... > > And what I want you to note is in [WCF] chapter 1 section 1, **they begin with a statement on the cessation of any new revelation. They were determined to state that they will believe only the Bible**. So please note, in the first section of chapter 1, they saw it necessary for the preserving and propagating of truth that would make the Holy Scripture to be most necessary. In other words, it has to be written down, so the message would be preserved and propagated far and wide with a uniformity of statement. > > **“Those former ways of God’s revealing His will unto His people being *now ceased*.”** This is front-loaded at the very outset. No wiggle room. These Puritan divines who gathered perhaps the greatest generation of believers in the UK, began with this cessationist statement. > > ... > > In the sixth section [WCF 1.6], we read of its sufficiency. **“The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life is in Scripture.” No need to look anywhere else. No need to have anything else added. No appendices needed**. They affirm the Scriptures that I have already read to you, that all things necessary for salvation and sanctification, for the glory of God is found in our Bible. In this sixth section also is another cessationist statement: **“Nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit or traditions of men.”** Do not be bringing your “Thus says the Lord” into this house if it’s not found in chapter and verse. > > ... > > Number 10 [WCF 1.10] is a final summation of the authority of the Scripture. “The supreme judge by which all controversies are to be determined and…examined…can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.” **Not speaking in your revelations, in your dreams and visions, in your tongues. Speaking in the Scripture *alone*.** And the Word of God will be the highest arbitrator in all matters in the life of the church. > > ... > > ### Sola Scriptura: Deluded by the Quakers > > Whenever God opens the windows of heaven to bless his people, the devil opens the gates of hell to blast. While the Puritans were meeting in Westminster in the 1640s, at exactly that same time virtually across town, the devil was doing his work. There arose a fringe group that would come to be known as the Quakers, also known as the Religious Society of Friends. **They claimed to be receiving new revelations, prophecies. And with that they were being led astray into hyper-emotionalism and mysticism**. > > ... > > And out of this commitment to be “open and uncautious” to **continuing revelation by the Spirit, they were led into all kinds of mystical experiences and bizarre patterns**, not the least of which was going naked as a sign. > > He was the person al chaplain to Oliver Cromwell. John Owen Addressed Parliament. This brilliant man gave himself to **combat this Charismatic emotional departure from *sola Scriptura* with its new revelations**. And Owen affirmed the deeper issue, which was *sola Scriptura*. --- I got the inspiration to ask this question from: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/101344/61679 https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/101366/61679

How do Christians understand the vision of Obadiah? Is this an end time prophecy? If so who is Edom today? If they believe this was already fulfilled in the past and Edom no longer exists then why do we not see that the kingdom has already been established as the vision concludes?

St. Thomas Aquinas is known to make excellent **conceptual distinctions** in philosophy and theology, most critically in his philosophy and psychology of the human soul, the nature of truth & love in God as well as in a human person, the intra-Trinitarian relations and the works of the Trinity *ad extra*, the interaction of angels with humans (which exorcists use), and many many more areas. So it is reasonable to ask **how we would use St. Thomas's own distinctions to analyze his "private revelation" of Christ to him** where Aquinas "heard" Jesus said: > Thou hast written well of me, Thomas; what reward wilt thou have?" To which St. Thomas responded: > None other than Thyself, Lord (*source*: [this article](https://www.churchpop.com/when-christ-spoke-from-a-crucifix-the-mystical-vision-of-st-thomas-aquinas/)) My question has to do with the **nature of this experience** that I hope an answer will use St. Thomas's own distinctions to describe it. Is it ecstasy? Is it beatific vision? Is it private revelation? Is it a Vision? Is it Christophany? Is it apparition? Is it Word of Knowledge (that some Christians claim to have today in Charismatic circles)? Is it like St. Paul being transported to 3rd heaven? Is it an out of body experience? Was it audible, visible, or non-empirical but palpable? Did the 3 fellow Dominicans who witnessed the account hear it too? Or was it similar to private mental seeing like when the light of faith permeates the light of reason? The curious thing is that Aquinas's experience is not listed in the *Wikipedia* article on [Catholic Church approved list of private revelations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_revelations_approved_by_the_Catholic_Church) nor in *Wikipedia* article on [Visions of Jesus and Mary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visions_of_Jesus_and_Mary) . Was it an oversight on *Wikipedia* part? Or was the nature of the experience different than "private revelation" and "vision"? It is so widely cited even in scholarly biographies of St. Thomas Aquinas that we cannot deem it mere legend, but did the Vatican ever authenticated St. Thomas's experience in the first place?

If we assume that the testimony of Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 is veridical, it would seem very counterintuitive (to me) that experiences of heavenly visitations would never happen again. On the contrary, I would expect more of such experiences to happen to people from time to time. > I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, **I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord**. 2 **I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.** 3 **And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—** 4 **and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter**. 5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses— 6 though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. 7 **So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations**, **a thorn was given me in the flesh**, **a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited**. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. [2 Corinthians 12:1-10 ESV] Are there modern cases (1900 - present) of heavenly visitations *a la* Paul (2 Cor 12:1-10) that are recognized and endorsed by a denomination? ____ Closely related: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/83049/50422

There's an instance in the history of one church in particular where it's held that one man had genuine visions from God, but that at a later point in his life after having been excommunicated he continued receiving "visions". The members of this church will genuinely hold that his earlier visions were true and his later visions were false. I'm curious if this sort of story has an precendence. Obviously the later lies of visions would normally put into question any of his previous visions, in my estimation - if he shows a proclivity about lieing about visions *now*, why would God reveal things to such a dishonest man earlier? If his visions previously **were** genuine, what could make a man capable of receiving genuine revelations turn into such a dishonest man? I'm thinking there could perhaps be some clues in similar stories from the Old Testament (or in Christianity I suppose), so I'm searching for similar stories.

This is not about anecdotal claims, but written, published claims that offer a way of substantiating at least some of it. In other words, this isn't about claims to know something about a person that could be supernatural knowledge about that person, but knowledge given about a real event that the person could not possibly have known naturally. And did the published report provide some factual evidence to back up the claim of the supernatural knowledge received? For example, I've read a book about some Christians getting forewarning of the slag-heap slide at Aberfan in Wales in 1966 that killed 147 people, most of them children in the primary school at the base of the hill. They received this premonitionary knowledge in time to warn the Coal Board, who ignored their warnings. Unless written documents can be produced showing the Coal Board did, indeed record such advance warnings, it's not verifiable. I ask this of Christians who believe God sometimes still answers prayers for understanding about events. Although examples could come from within any Christian denomination whatsoever, I seek answers from Christians who are open to special words of knowledge still being given by God in modern times. Anything in the last 100 years would be of interest (no further back, please).

In Acts 2, during the Sermon at Pentecost, Peter reminded his astonished Jewish audience about the well-known prophecy uttered by the prophet Joel: > 14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: > > 17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, > **that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh**, > **and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy**, > **and your young men shall see visions**, > **and your old men shall dream dreams**; > 18 even on my male servants and female servants > in those days **I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy**. Many believe that we are currently in the end times, and that [Joel 2:28-32](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel+2%3A28-32&version=ESV) 's prophecy is especially true today. In fact, testimonies of people claiming to have received rapture dreams, visions or end times prophetic revelations from God abound in the internet. Just to give you an idea, there are several YouTube channels whose primary purpose is searching, collecting and reuploading other people's testimonial videos about prophetic dreams and visions: [example 1](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt5mcu9_GqrSx_kCiWt-Osw/videos) , [example 2](https://www.youtube.com/c/CrystalLove4Jesus/videos) , [example 3](https://www.youtube.com/user/truthrabbit/videos) , [example 4](https://www.youtube.com/c/LivingForChrist1/videos) , [example 5](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP45dOgzr_z_fxYGDwqINcg/videos) . You may also try [this search](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=end+times+rapture+dream+vision+testimony) to find more testimonies that people keep uploading all the time. That said, it is difficult to distinguish between genuine and fake cases. It's not always easy to tell whether someone is sharing a genuine experience or if they are simply making stuff up motivated by a craving for attention or revenue. **Question**: Are there any documented cases of people receiving prophetic revelations, dreams or visions in modern times (1900 to the present), which are endorsed by a denomination that considers them credible, reliable and divinely inspired? How do such denominations verify the genuineness or falsity of a given prophecy, dream or vision?

I've heard many testimonies and claims about Muslims converting to Christianity because Jesus allegedly appeared to them in dreams and visions. For the interested reader, these are some example sources making such claims: (https://youtu.be/9SAPOLKF59U) , (https://youtu.be/Th-yn5IIufw) , (https://youtu.be/B6zV5bACWMc) , (https://youtu.be/-FylmW4TzP4) , (https://youtu.be/1a2SIfO_eYs) , (https://youtu.be/utOTjdxHUnM) . Is there any biblical support for this phenomenon? Can we find any parallels or prophecies about this phenomenon in Scripture?

In [Acts 2:1-4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202&version=NLT) the believers > were filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability. Then in [Acts 2:14-21](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:14-21&version=NLT) Peter quoted [Joel 2:28-32](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel%202%3A28-32&version=NLT) to explain that they were not drunk: > **¹⁶** No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel: > > **¹⁷** ‘In the last days,’ God says, > ‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. > Your sons and daughters will prophesy. > Your young men will see visions, > and your old men will dream dreams. > > **¹⁸** In those days I will pour out my Spirit > even on my servants—men and women alike— > and they will prophesy. Someone I know who belongs to a church that is somewhat related to Pentecostalism (independent, no affiliation) makes a big deal about this, saying that **all believers** CAN have dreams and visions (if they ask God to "claim His promise" in vv 17-18), which they can then use to "see the spiritual realm" (her terms) which include: - discerning what the Holy Spirit wants them to do, just like how the [Holy Spirit guided several individuals in Acts](https://www.str.org/w/divine-direction-decision-making-in-the-book-of-acts) - seeing intrusions by demons that they can use to take appropriate action - etc. Her church teaching "encourages" (more like an imperative) that all believers are to seek these gifts. Otherwise: - their spiritual growth is stunted - they "remain in the flesh" - they are unable to grow to their full potential, or even worse, - the lack of "seeing the spiritual realm" will prevent them from seeing warning given by the Holy Spirit to their own peril. The question: **Is the teaching above standard Pentecostalism?** Ideally, I would like a denomination survey, but excepting Pentecostalism and possibly Catholicism, the answer from other denominations would most likely be in the negative. Please comment if I should ask this question to other denominations as well, as it might be interesting to see how different denominations provide the reason why the answer is a "no".

I looked at many Christian apologist websites, like GotQuestions, which states that anybody who claims to see God can have their claims evaluated by Scripture . So far so good, but how would people like Abraham know that their visions of God were real and that they were not deceived if they didn't have the complete edition of the Scripture?

How does the Catholic Church answer this question: Suppose you hear God make you a commandment, how do you differentiate that from either your own internal monologue or from an imposter angel or demon, a hallucination or of the word of God himself? I don’t mean to ask advice for myself, but in a general sense, how does a person differentiate between the word of God as many describe hearing in the bible from an illusion or an imposter.

We know that visionaries, such as them , talk/talked with the Virgin Mary or God. But does the Pope directly talk with God or the Virgin Mary? Or, does he do it in any other, not-direct, way? Is it the same for any precedent Pope?

I am a Catholic. There are many visions and ecstasy and saints. As a Catholic, am I obliged to believe in visions and saints?

I have a friend who sees people who have passed away. She can see, hear, and talk to them. This isn't fake, she really can. She recently told me that she sees my deceased grandfather at our ball games. She cannot see her mother who died a few years ago, which frustrates her. She isn't religious. Does the Bible say anything about this? Is this absolutely impossible? What does this mean about the people she sees, like my grandfather? Some would say that he hasn't crossed over into the after world. I'm almost positive he was saved though. Thanks.

> ...Hence, public revelation is the deposit of faith and rule of faith > and must be lived by all Catholics. Saint Thomas Aquinas taught > that all public revelation ended with the death of Saint John the > Apostle. ... Private revelations cannot surpass, correct, improve, fulfill, complete, or perfect public revelation. More... If the Catholic Church approve a private revelation as worthy is the Church also obliged to follow the messages and requests? I'm referring to the Fatima visions as they were approved by the Church. In these visions, the Virgin Mary asks for the consecration of Russia. Is the Church obligated to do it or can the Church (pope) say this is a private revelation and we as the Church don't submit to its authority? Something like if God wants it the Holy Spirit would lead the Pope and the bishops the "standard" way as we know it from the tradition, similarly when they decide dogmas.

---------- # 1. Question - A Reference Request: # Is there any occasion in scripture where someone prophesied to another and made an honest mistake, or were later corrected? **Note:** This is apart from any discussion regarding false prophets.* ---------- # 2. Context: # "Schools of Prophecy" often claim that ***"Words of Knowledge" to others*** can be mistaken, or subject to personal fallibility, (Shawn Bolz on Accountability / Fallibility ); Is there a Biblical Basis for this? **Other Closely Related Questions:** - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/50906/in-scripture-was-gods-voice-ever-mistaken-when-spoken-privately - Historically, How was “Word of Knowledge” Understood? - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/50899/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-schools-of-prophecy-where-people-learn-to-pro - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/16207/how-to-know-whether-god-truly-spoke-to-you?noredirect=1&lq=1 - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/14628/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-testing-the-truthfulness-of-every-statement-made