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-5 votes
4 answers
246 views
Four-In-One God and Four-In-One Body of Christ
1. **God is four-in-one.** 2. **The Body of Christ is four-in-one.** The Father, The Son, The Spirit and You. There is no participation in God's essence/Godhead, only in His energies/economy by believers. Are these **two statements** orthodox, heterodox, or heresy? #### Possible Biblical Basis: John...
1. **God is four-in-one.** 2. **The Body of Christ is four-in-one.** The Father, The Son, The Spirit and You. There is no participation in God's essence/Godhead, only in His energies/economy by believers. Are these **two statements** orthodox, heterodox, or heresy? #### Possible Biblical Basis: John 14:20 (NIV): > On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. John 14:23 (NIV): > Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. John 17:21 (NIV): > that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 1 Corinthians 6:19 (NIV): > Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; Ephesians 3:17 (NIV): > so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, Ephesians 4:4-6 (NIV): > 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. #### Arguments For: - https://conversantfaith.com/2025/06/12/four-in-one-witness-lee-and-trinitarian-ecclesiology/ : > "Witness Lee’s claim that the Body of Christ is “a four-in-one organic entity” belongs within this broad and venerable stream: a distinctive, but not discordant, contribution to the tradition of Trinitarian ecclesiology." - https://www.equip.org/articles/addressing-the-open-letters-concerns-on-the-nature-of-humanity-part-3-of-a-reassessment-of-the-local-church-movement-of-watchman-nee-and-witness-lee/ : > "On first blush a skeptic might legitimately ask, “How could believers not partake in the Godhead if they partake in God’s life and nature?” The answer, however, becomes clear when Lee is read in his own context and allowed to define his own terms. When Lee refers to the “processed God,” he is clearly speaking about the economic Trinity. It is this Trinity that becomes in a sense “four-in-one.” There is no change in the essential or ontological Trinity (what Lee is here calling the Godhead) with the deification of believers any more than there was a change in the ontological Trinity with the incarnation of Christ. According to the LC, in the outworking of God’s economy or plan of salvation, there is a process that includes progressive steps in which God the Father is embodied in the Son in incarnation, Christ is realized as the Spirit in resurrection, and ultimately the Triune God is expressed in the glorified church; but in His essential nature or Godhead, the Lord remains forever unchanged." #### Arguments Against: - https://normangeisler.com/a-response-to-cri-local-church/ : > "To illustrate the absurdity of the LC position, one final citation from Witness Lee is necessary. He wrote: “Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the ‘four-in-one’ God. These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. The Three of the Divine Trinity cannot be confused or separated, and the four-in-one also cannot be separated or confused.” (Lee , A Deeper Study, 203-204). No amount of hermeneutical gyrations can untangle this theological absurdity. Clearly, Lee does not hold the orthodox view of the Trinity which allows no creature or creatures to be one with the members of the Trinity in the same sense that the Body of Christ (the Church) is one with God. Defending such a view is both senseless and useless." - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/scotty-smith/trinity-no-4th-member/ : > "You are the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, and everything in between. Hallelujah, many times over. As our God, you are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—perfect Trinity. And you’re not looking to turn a Trio into a Quartet. We matter, but only you are the point." #### Witness Lee Quotations: - The Central Line of the Divine Revelation - Message 9: >"According to Ephesians 4:4-6, the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body are all one. This is the oneness of the Body. It is altogether proper to say that the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body are four-in-one. The Triune God is three, yet He now has a fourth part, a counterpart. However, only the first three are worthy of our worship. The Triune God and His counterpart are now four-in-one." - The Central Line of the Divine Revelation - Message 11: >"The Body of Christ, the church, is four-in-one: the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. However, only the first three are worthy of our worship; the fourth, the Body, should not be deified as an object of worship." - A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing - Chapter 15: >"The Triune God and the church are four-in-one. Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the “four-in-one God.” These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. The three of the Divine Trinity cannot be confused or separated, and the four-in-one also cannot be separated or confused."
user150536 (19 rep)
Feb 21, 2026, 04:45 AM • Last activity: Apr 11, 2026, 04:50 PM
6 votes
4 answers
900 views
What is "spirit" in Holy Spirit?
Jesus taught the woman of Samaria that ["God is spirit"][1]. The answer to the [Penny Catechism Q17.][2] *What is God?* is **God is the supreme Spirit**, *who alone exists of himself, and is infinite in all perfections.* [As the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Holy Spirit is God and consubs...
Jesus taught the woman of Samaria that "God is spirit" . The answer to the Penny Catechism Q17. *What is God?* is **God is the supreme Spirit**, *who alone exists of himself, and is infinite in all perfections.* As the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Holy Spirit is God and consubstantial with the Father and the Son. A diagram as one below is sometimes used to explain the mystery of the Blessed Trinity. enter image description here This is where it gets confusing for me. If each of the persons is God, then from the foregoing we can say > The Holy Spirit is the supreme Spirit. Since the Father and the son are each also the supreme Spirit but not the Holy Spirit, what is "spirit" in the Holy Spirit and how is it different from "spirit" in the supreme Spirit? Catholic perspective preferred but any others welcome from Christians who believe in the Blessed Trinity.
user13992
Dec 6, 2014, 02:23 PM • Last activity: Mar 31, 2026, 11:06 PM
1 votes
4 answers
239 views
Is Jesus outside of time?
For those who believe that God is outside of time, is Jesus also outside of time? On the one hand Jesus existed in time on Earth during His incarnation and perhaps as the Word of God in the Old Testament. >But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right...
For those who believe that God is outside of time, is Jesus also outside of time? On the one hand Jesus existed in time on Earth during His incarnation and perhaps as the Word of God in the Old Testament. >But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God - Heb.10:12. **Conclusion** The answers below agree that yes, Jesus' spiritual self is outside of time. His physical body was within time.
Hall Livingston (906 rep)
Mar 7, 2026, 08:52 PM • Last activity: Mar 28, 2026, 12:26 AM
0 votes
3 answers
255 views
What is a good analogy for God being outside of time but not completely controlling it?
What is a good analogy for God being outside of time but not completely controlling it? We have heard the analogy of God being on the bank of the river of time. Revelation Lad wrote about God looking down on the solar system and seeing us experience day and night without His experiencing them (https...
What is a good analogy for God being outside of time but not completely controlling it? We have heard the analogy of God being on the bank of the river of time. Revelation Lad wrote about God looking down on the solar system and seeing us experience day and night without His experiencing them (https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/111175/102058) . I have a different analogy. I read that if one wants comments on a write-up, they should post it as the answer to a question, making up an appropriate question, if necessary. When I ask a question, the system says, "Answer your own question – share your knowledge, Q&A-style". So, please comment on my answer. **Conclusion** Rather than my analogy, I prefer Mimi's analogy that God can travel back and forth through time. Thus God can - 1. Know the future without controlling it. 2. Change the future in response to our prayers. 3. Change the past (although I am not aware of His having done this). **Comments** 1. This does not represent my personal beliefs, only a simple way of understanding one set of beliefs. 2. This does not appear to be a salvation issue. Those of us with a proper relationship with Jesus should end up in the New Jerusalem, regardless of whether we believe that a. God doesn't completely know the future, b. God completely knows the future but doesn't completely control it, or c. God completely knows the future because He completely controls it. 3. Googling a definition of absolute sovereignty got me the following: >absolutism political system Also known as: absolute monarchy, autocracy Written and fact-checked by The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica Last Updated: Oct. 11, 2025 •Article History Britannica AI Icon Britannica AI Ask Anything >absolutism, the political doctrine and practice of unlimited centralized authority and **absolute sovereignty**, as vested especially in a monarch or dictator. The essence of an absolutist system is that the ruling power is not subject to regularized challenge or check by any other agency, be it judicial, legislative, religious, economic, or electoral. King Louis XIV (1643–1715) of France furnished the most familiar assertion of absolutism when he said, “L’état, c’est moi” (“I am the state”). Absolutism has existed in various forms in all parts of the world, including in Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler and in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin. Please notice that the definition requires only that the rule be unchecked. It says nothing about how much control the ruler chooses to apply. Each of the three groups listed in comment 2 tends to agree that God has absolute sovereignty, that He can do and have done whatever He chooses, and no one can interfere. Using "absolute sovereignty" such that it applies to only one of the three groups in comment 2 is unfair and misleading.
Hall Livingston (906 rep)
Nov 1, 2025, 09:58 PM • Last activity: Mar 25, 2026, 01:23 PM
4 votes
3 answers
334 views
Understanding/explaining the wrath of God
When you read Numbers 25 and then view the middle east through that lens….. the actions of the middle east don’t feel as extreme. I definitely do not agree with the extremes of the middle east culture, but I am also shocked and dismayed at the extremes of what are written in Numbers 25. Yet God said...
When you read Numbers 25 and then view the middle east through that lens….. the actions of the middle east don’t feel as extreme. I definitely do not agree with the extremes of the middle east culture, but I am also shocked and dismayed at the extremes of what are written in Numbers 25. Yet God said…. > 4 ……. “Take all the leaders of the people and execute[b] them in broad daylight before the LORD so that his burning anger may turn away > from Israel.” > > 7 …….Aaron the priest, saw this, he got up from the assembly, took a > spear in his hand, 8 followed the Israelite man into the tent,[c] and > drove it through both the Israelite man and the woman—through her > belly. > > 11 …….Aaron the priest, has turned back my wrath from the Israelites > because he was zealous among them with my zeal,[d] so that I did not > destroy the Israelites in my zeal.* > > 17 “Attack the Midianites and strike them dead. 18 For they attacked > you with the treachery that they used against you in the Peor > incident. How do I as a Christian, defend this to a nonbeliever (or someone who questions Christianity). “This” being the fact that the God I serve, directed this….condoned this….. and rewarded this.
matt (211 rep)
Jan 12, 2026, 08:03 PM • Last activity: Mar 23, 2026, 12:35 AM
1 votes
6 answers
698 views
Why is Trinity Necessary After Jesus' Death? Can't God Exist As One?
Why can't God exist as One when there's no point of Him existing in 3 forms that too after death of Jesus. Why is Trinity necessary as it gets confusing everytime you try to pray to God. Furthermore, there are many questions ([Look at them][1]) than answers when it comes to Jesus calling God as one...
Why can't God exist as One when there's no point of Him existing in 3 forms that too after death of Jesus. Why is Trinity necessary as it gets confusing everytime you try to pray to God. Furthermore, there are many questions (Look at them ) than answers when it comes to Jesus calling God as one at many places in the Bible. My question is if God can manifest in 3 forms, there is a higher chance of him existing in more than 3 forms? Isn't it. Why stop at 3? So it would have been much better if God existed as one in all respects for there would be no contradictions. If God is Sufficient in all Respects, then What's the need of Holy Spirit Or Jesus to exist. What's their role in running the affairs of this Universe. Ain't God as one, sufficient?
Sana Mir (89 rep)
Mar 15, 2026, 07:27 PM • Last activity: Mar 18, 2026, 11:45 PM
13 votes
8 answers
90835 views
What is the difference between holiness and righteousness?
Both holiness and righteousness are used to describe God. Additionally, we as Christians are called to be holy and righteous as well. These are two distinct words, so they must have distinct meanings. So, my question is what distinguishes holiness from righteousness? > **You shall be holy to me, for...
Both holiness and righteousness are used to describe God. Additionally, we as Christians are called to be holy and righteous as well. These are two distinct words, so they must have distinct meanings. So, my question is what distinguishes holiness from righteousness? > **You shall be holy to me, for I the Lord am holy** and have separated you > from the peoples, that you should be mine. Leviticus 20:26 ESV > > 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your > former ignorance, 15 but as **he who called you is holy**, **you also be > holy** in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “**You shall be holy**, > for **I am holy**.” 1 Peter 1:14-16 ESV > > You are witnesses, and God also, how **holy and righteous** and blameless > was our conduct toward you believers. 1 Thessalonians 2:10 ESV > > But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have > heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 > to put off your old self,[f] which belongs to your former manner of > life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in > the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after > the likeness of God in true **righteousness and holiness.** Ephesians > 4:20-24 ESV
Sycamore (131 rep)
Dec 6, 2012, 02:49 AM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 10:55 AM
2 votes
3 answers
726 views
Does the Catholic's Trinity doctrine imply that the Unitarian God Multiplied into Three persons by Generating the other Two?
Does the cause-effect and begotten doctrine of the Eastern and Roman Catholic Church imply a division or multiplication in the nature of God? Unitarian God (Father) begets or caused into effect the second person- Son, who is subordinate to the Father. I am not using *Subordinate* in the sense of hav...
Does the cause-effect and begotten doctrine of the Eastern and Roman Catholic Church imply a division or multiplication in the nature of God? Unitarian God (Father) begets or caused into effect the second person- Son, who is subordinate to the Father. I am not using *Subordinate* in the sense of having a lesser divine and different substance/essence than the Father, but when they say "begotten not made", and that the Father alone is uncaused seem to imply that the Father begot the Son like a living creature begets its offspring. The offspring of God is not created from outside substance (like man from dust) but literally *derived, generated, caused or begotten* from the Father's divine nature, and he is equally divine. The Son is lesser in rank by the virtue of "generation", and the Spirit "proceeds". The words begotten and proceed are used, but seem to imply causation and generation. As though the Monarch, Unitarian God generated the (co-divine persons) Son and the Spirit, transforming into Multipersonal or the Trinity. The topics on "begotten, not made " and the "Monarchy of the Father " doctrine and the doctrines of "eternal generation", "eternal sonship" and "eternally begotten" generated this question. The language and these phrases in their creeds have resulted in confusion and debate; One might even say that such a literal generation of the divine persons undermines the doctrine of Immutability or the unchangeable nature of God. > Eastern Orthodox - Wiki > > According to the Eastern Orthodox view, the **Son is derived from the > Father who alone is without cause or origin.** This is not > subordinationism, and the same doctrine is asserted by western > theologians such as Augustine. In this view, the Son is co-eternal > with the Father or even in terms of the co-equal uncreated nature shared by the Father and Son. However, this view is sometimes > misunderstood as a form of subordinationism by Western Christians, who also asserts the same view even when not using the technical term i.e. > Monarchy of the Father. Western view is often viewed by the Eastern > Church as being close to Modalism. > > **Catholics** > > The Catholic Church also believes that the Son is > begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit is proceeding from the > Father through and from the Son. Catholic theologian John Hardon > wrote that subordinationism "denies that the second and third persons > are consubstantial with the Father. Therefore it denies their true divinity." Arius "made a formal heresy of" subordinationism. > > The International Theological Commission wrote that "many Christian > theologians borrowed from Hellenism the notion of a secondary god > (deuteros theos), or of an intermediate god, or even of a demiurge." > Subordinationism was "latent in some of the Apologists and in > Origen." The Son was, for Arius, in "an intermediate position > between the Father and the creatures." Nicaea I "defined that the Son > is consubstantial (*homoousios*) with the Father. In so doing, the > Church both repudiated the Arian compromise with Hellenism and deeply > altered the shape of Greek, especially Platonist and neo-Platonist, > metaphysics. In a manner of speaking, it demythicized Hellenism and > effected a Christian purification of it. In the act of dismissing the > notion of an intermediate being, the Church recognized only two modes > of being: uncreated (nonmade) and created."
Michael16 (2258 rep)
Aug 10, 2021, 10:14 AM • Last activity: Mar 2, 2026, 02:02 PM
-2 votes
8 answers
542 views
What is the Biblical Basis that God does not know every detail of the future?
What are the Biblical arguments used by those who teach that God does not know every detail of the future? I've seen three answers as to whether God knows every detail of the future. - 1. "God knows every detail of the future, including things that He hasn't planned". 2. "God knows every detail of t...
What are the Biblical arguments used by those who teach that God does not know every detail of the future? I've seen three answers as to whether God knows every detail of the future. - 1. "God knows every detail of the future, including things that He hasn't planned". 2. "God knows every detail of the future because He plans every detail of the future". 3. "While God could control every detail of the future, He does not, and sometimes things happen that He does not expect to happen". A complete response should discuss all three. **Conclusion** I accepted Kristopher's answer as it best answered the question. I awarded the 200 point bounty to Andrew Shanks as his answer and comments were most helpful in refining my answer, which was the goal of the bounty.
Hall Livingston (906 rep)
Nov 13, 2025, 03:36 AM • Last activity: Mar 1, 2026, 05:04 AM
4 votes
3 answers
941 views
How does God's being outside of time contradict foreknowledge, predestination and election?
I asked, "What is the Boethian solution?" One answer was - >The Boethian solution refers to a philosophical argument, most famously detailed in Boethius's *The Consolation of Philosophy*, that resolves the problem of divine foreknowledge and human free will. Boethius argues that God is eternal, exis...
I asked, "What is the Boethian solution?" One answer was - >The Boethian solution refers to a philosophical argument, most famously detailed in Boethius's *The Consolation of Philosophy*, that resolves the problem of divine foreknowledge and human free will. Boethius argues that God is eternal, existing outside of time, and thus perceives all of time—past, present, and future—at once, much like a person outside of a train can see the entire track at once. For God, there is no "fore"-knowledge but an "eternal present" where all events are simply "present" to Him, not predetermined by His knowledge. Therefore, an event happening does not occur because God foresaw it, but rather God simply sees it happening in His eternal present, a fact that does not remove human freedom. The answer added - >This theory contradicts the scriptural concepts which Paul expresses, namely ; foreknowledge, predestination and election. How does God's being outside of time contradict foreknowledge, predestination and election?
Hall Livingston (906 rep)
Oct 30, 2025, 09:54 AM • Last activity: Feb 27, 2026, 01:38 PM
7 votes
3 answers
4395 views
Why were ousia and hypostasis synonymous in the Nicene Creed?
Why were ousia and hypostasis synonymous in the Nicene Creed? ---- In the original 325 A.D. Nicene Creed, an anathema is included which has ousia and hypostasis as synonymous. In this case, the Trinity is one hypostasis ( = homoousios). >And in the Holy Spirit. But as for those who say, There was wh...
Why were ousia and hypostasis synonymous in the Nicene Creed? ---- In the original 325 A.D. Nicene Creed, an anathema is included which has ousia and hypostasis as synonymous. In this case, the Trinity is one hypostasis ( = homoousios). >And in the Holy Spirit. But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a ***different hypostasis or substance*** (ὑποστάσεως ἢ οὐσιάς) or created, or is subject to alteration or change these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes. Source: https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/creed_of_nicaea_325.htm It seems also the meaning of υποστασις in Hebrews 1:3. >He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his ***nature*** (υποστασις) (ESV). The ASV has "substance". However, in later centuries hypostasis began referring to the "person", not the "nature" or "being" of the Trinity. **Why did such change in definition occur?** It would be helpful to address the semantical development of υποστασις on how it changed from "substance" (nature/essence) to "person". >The Church confesses is that God is three Persons (hypostasis) in one Essence (ousia). Source: https://www.google.com.ph/amp/s/exploringthedepthsofthedivine.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/god-as-trinity-orthodox-trinitarianism/amp/
Matthew Co (6709 rep)
Jul 29, 2020, 11:09 AM • Last activity: Feb 16, 2026, 06:42 PM
1 votes
1 answers
92 views
Concepts of "the unknown god" (Acts 17:23) in animistic pagan theology?
I was reading *What is the Trinity* by R.C. Sproul, where he writes on page 18: > One of the most striking things that I encountered during my graduate work in the 1960s was the evidence that was emerging from the work of theological anthropologists and sociologists who were examining the religious...
I was reading *What is the Trinity* by R.C. Sproul, where he writes on page 18: > One of the most striking things that I encountered during my graduate work in the 1960s was the evidence that was emerging from the work of theological anthropologists and sociologists who were examining the religious views of various primitive tribes in the world. They were finding that while animism was outwardly prevalent in those cultures, the people frequently spoke about a god on the other side of the mountain or a god who was distantly removed from them. In other words, they had a concept of a high god who was not at the center of their daily religious practices. This god was like the unknown god of the Greeks, a god with whom they were not in contact but who nevertheless was there. This is extremely interesting. I am not very familiar with the study of anthropology. What examples of this are there around the world?
Jacob Ivanov (131 rep)
Nov 14, 2025, 02:29 AM • Last activity: Feb 11, 2026, 02:09 AM
1 votes
5 answers
150 views
How did Job have a conversation with God before Christ and the Holy Spirit were revealed to men?
How did Job have a conversation with God before Christ was incarnated, and the coming of the Holy Spirit? What ***form*** did Job recognize as being God who was talking to him?
How did Job have a conversation with God before Christ was incarnated, and the coming of the Holy Spirit? What ***form*** did Job recognize as being God who was talking to him?
Cornelia Raath-Lotter (27 rep)
Jan 30, 2026, 02:28 PM • Last activity: Feb 1, 2026, 09:53 PM
8 votes
8 answers
90865 views
Did God create man to worship and praise Him as He bestowed His love on us?
I heard it many times from some Christians and even preachers that God created us to worship and praise Him. I think this idea came from the fact that Psalms contain many phrases like *"Praise the Lord"* and many words related to worship. I'm still not convinced with verses from Psalms that the **ma...
I heard it many times from some Christians and even preachers that God created us to worship and praise Him. I think this idea came from the fact that Psalms contain many phrases like *"Praise the Lord"* and many words related to worship. I'm still not convinced with verses from Psalms that the **main purpose** of creating us was to praise and worship God. The purpose of creating human, as I see from Genesis 1:28 is to *multiply, fill the earth and subdue it.* Is there any verses from the Bible that clearly indicates we were created mainly to praise and worship God?
Mawia (16236 rep)
Oct 12, 2013, 03:51 PM • Last activity: Jan 21, 2026, 04:44 PM
3 votes
2 answers
396 views
Did early christians believe in a corporeal God?
I fell down a rabbit hole regarding Origen, and [Wikipedia][1] notes this interesting event that caught my eye: > In 399, the Origenist crisis reached Egypt.[1] Theophilus of > Alexandria was sympathetic to the supporters of Origen[1] and the > church historian, Sozomen, records that he had openly p...
I fell down a rabbit hole regarding Origen, and Wikipedia notes this interesting event that caught my eye: > In 399, the Origenist crisis reached Egypt.[1] Theophilus of > Alexandria was sympathetic to the supporters of Origen[1] and the > church historian, Sozomen, records that he had openly preached the > Origenist teaching that God was incorporeal. In his Festal Letter > of 399, he denounced those who believed that God had a literal, > human-like body, calling them illiterate "simple ones". A > large mob of Alexandrian monks who regarded God as anthropomorphic > rioted in the streets. According to the church historian Socrates > Scholasticus, in order to prevent a riot, Theophilus made a sudden > about-face and began denouncing Origen. In the year 400, > Theophilus summoned a council in Alexandria, which condemned Origen > and all his followers as heretics for having taught that God was > incorporeal, **which they decreed contradicted the only true and > orthodox position, which was that God had a literal, physical body > resembling that of a human**.[a] Was "God is corporeal" the orthodox position in the early church, and if yes, how long? As far as I understand, modern day christians for the most part regard God as incorporeal, right?
kutschkem (6399 rep)
Jan 14, 2026, 11:57 AM • Last activity: Jan 14, 2026, 11:36 PM
-3 votes
12 answers
1427 views
From a strictly Unitarian perpective, what passages of scripture give the strongest support for Jesus being a separate person than the person of YHWH?
Jesus' most important commandment is the following: >Jesus answered him, *“The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, YHWH our Elohim, YHWH is 1. And you shall love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the firs...
Jesus' most important commandment is the following: >Jesus answered him, *“The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, YHWH our Elohim, YHWH is 1. And you shall love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment."* Those who reject the triune theory do so because we interpret the scriptures to show a clear distinction between the person of YHWH (the 1 God), and His only begotten, the Son of God. The most well known words of Jesus are recorded in John 3:16. This is only 1 simple example of Jesus making a distinction between himself and God. John 3:16 >For **God** so loved the world that **He** gave ***His** only begotten Son*, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Throughout scripture this theme holds very consistent and can be shown with countless verses. There are too many to list them all. ***What are the BEST scriptures to support the interpretation that Jesus is not the same person as God (YHWH), but rather the Son of God and a completely separate person?*** -- Note: In the context of this question, verses that make a distinction between YHWH and Jesus would be greater support than verses that make a distinction between the Father and Jesus (even though we know the Father is YHWH according to this perspective).
Read Less Pray More (159 rep)
Aug 2, 2023, 02:26 AM • Last activity: Jan 13, 2026, 08:05 AM
-2 votes
2 answers
209 views
Why Did God Create a World That Allows for Evil if He's Omnibenevolent and Omniscient?
I came across a blog post by a platonist in which he critiqued the traditional Christian understanding of God and evil given God's omnibenevolence and omniscience, saying: > Augustine's claim that evil is not a substance but a privation of good > was designed to absolve God of direct responsibility...
I came across a blog post by a platonist in which he critiqued the traditional Christian understanding of God and evil given God's omnibenevolence and omniscience, saying: > Augustine's claim that evil is not a substance but a privation of good > was designed to absolve God of direct responsibility for evil's > existence. However, this position does not escape the more profound > paradox that God created beings who could lapse into privation and did > so with full foreknowledge of the consequences. The free will defense > only complicates the issue: if God grants free will knowing it will be > misused, the divine act of creation becomes entangled with the > emergence of moral evil. Moreover, if the will can remain oriented > toward the good only through divine grace, then free will itself seems > limited or dependent in a way that undermines its explanatory value. > The paradox intensifies when considering the role of Satan, whose > rebellious agency destabilizes the coherence of monotheistic > sovereignty. If Satan undermines God's purposes, divine omnipotence is > weakened; if Satan acts only with God's permission, then divine > benevolence is compromised. Either interpretation raises problems that > the privation theory cannot reconcile. These tensions reveal a more > profound structural paradox at the heart of Christian theodicy. In a > cosmos created ex nihilo by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God, > nothing can exist independently of divine will or permission. > Consequently, all conditions that make evil possible, creaturely > freedom, vulnerability, corruptibility, and the existence of tempters > are ultimately grounded in God's creative act. Christian theodicy thus > attempts to balance divine goodness with divine sovereignty, but the > metaphysical architecture of monotheism forces a contradiction: either > God is powerful enough to prevent evil but chooses not to, or God > wills a world in which evil inevitably emerges, making evil indirectly > a by-product of divine creative intention. Augustine's partial > incorporation of Neoplatonic ideas helps articulate evil as a > metaphysical deficiency. Yet, even this philosophical refinement > cannot compensate for a more fundamental issue: Christian theology's > consolidation of causality in a single omnipotent agent ensures that > God remains tied to every aspect of cosmic order and disorder alike. > The result is a system in which the existence of evil perpetually > threatens either the goodness or the sovereignty of the creator, and > the tradition's attempts to resolve this tension never entirely > eliminate its underlying contradictions. > > (Flavius Julianus Mithridaticus, *Evil as Shadow, Heroism as Form: An > Indo-European View of Theodicy*, The New Platonic Academy) To restate his critiques: - God created people with the ability to be evil and knew of the consequences because of his foreknowledge. He created people knowing they would use their free will for evil which makes evil a by-product of his creation. This seems to bring his omnibenevolence into question. If I created a simulation with the parameters allowing for characters in it to be evil then I'm responsible, at least partly, for evil existing in my simulation. - If Satan can thwart God's purposes [such as his desire for everyone to have faith in Him and live according to His moral law (my comment)], then it calls his omnipotence into question. And if Satan only acts with God's permission, then God's benevolence is compromised. If someone is stealing something or hurting someone and I allow it to happen when I have the ability to stop it, then I'm being evil. In Catholicism, being able to prevent or stop something evil and not doing it is the sin of omission. A more accurate allegory with regards to Satan's acts that are permitted by God: I'm standing in the way of an assailant and their victim and when the assailant asks if they can attack their victim, I nod and step aside, allowing the evil to take place. Maybe my allegory is off, but I'm having difficulty seeing his omnibenevolence given this. My allegory somewhat reminded me of the book of Job where Job, who is a holy man has his life and loved ones destroyed after God gives Satan permission and if I'm remembering correctly, God didn't give Job an explanation and instead told him about the world He created. - In a world created by God as understood by Christians, nothing exists apart from God's will or permission. Either God is powerful enough to prevent evil, but chooses not to or God willed a world where evil would inevitably exist, making evil a by-product of his creation. He presents a sound critique of the traditional Christian understanding of God and evil and it completely stumped me so if you have any thoughts, please share them because I don't know how to rebut him. Thank you in advance to anyone who tries to tackle this.
TheCupOfJoe (156 rep)
Dec 30, 2025, 04:59 AM • Last activity: Jan 1, 2026, 04:45 PM
4 votes
5 answers
373 views
Can Christians, in good faith, hold that God is not perfect [i.e. not complete]?
If we define perfection as ["complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement"](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/perfect) then the answer may that God is not yet perfect because humans have not always responded as God intended. There seems to be some scriptural basis for this. For example, 2 Pe...
If we define perfection as ["complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement"](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/perfect) then the answer may that God is not yet perfect because humans have not always responded as God intended. There seems to be some scriptural basis for this. For example, 2 Peter 3:9 says: > The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is > patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come > to repentance. Logically, if God wishes all to come to repentance but all do not respond, then God's wish is unfulfilled. Proverbs 13:12 says "Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life." If we apply this to the situation described in 2 Peter, then God's heart is sick, because His desire has not been fulfilled (that all come to repentance). We also get a sense of God's heart being broken elsewhere in scripture, as the prophets speak of Him as feeling like a husband whose wife has betrayed him, or as a father whose children have gone astray. The argument for God not being perfect boils down the idea that God desires a relationship with His children and that He suffers when we do not respond to His love. Is this idea heretical, or may Christians accept it without falling into serious error? (Note: the question does not seek arguments in favor of God's perfection/completeness, but is concerned primarily with the issue of whether or not belief in God's perfection is necessary to Christian faith.) ---------- Addendum: I hope readers will understand the question as I have defined it (the issue of God's "completeness" as opposed to the issue of His moral perfection). I've edited the title accordingly.
Dan Fefferman (7726 rep)
Jun 10, 2023, 07:48 PM • Last activity: Dec 28, 2025, 08:29 PM
25 votes
18 answers
23732 views
What exactly does it mean that Jesus Christ is the son of God?
What does it mean to a Christian that Christ is the son of God? On the one hand, obviously, the normal biological meaning of _son_ does not apply. On the other hand, ["we are all children of God", but Jesus seems to be more so][3]. That God offered up His only son as a sacrifice for humanity's sins...
What does it mean to a Christian that Christ is the son of God? On the one hand, obviously, the normal biological meaning of _son_ does not apply. On the other hand, "we are all children of God", but Jesus seems to be more so . That God offered up His only son as a sacrifice for humanity's sins is often used as an argument to demonstrate God's love for humanity. This would imply that God loves Jesus more than His other children, that this sacrifice was particularly hard, indicating that Jesus has a filial relationship with God in a sense that we would understand. It implies that sending His son to his death was extremely painful to Him, more so than the deaths of His other children. Now, these arguments seem to me to be a clear anthropomorphisation of God, Christians seem to be attributing human characteristics such as the love of a father --not metaphorically as when referring to humanity as God's children, but in a very literal way-- to God. This seems to clash with another central tenet of Christianity which states that God is beyond our understanding, that we cannot fathom His plan. If so, then any attribution of human emotion to Him would be wrong. So, my question is how do Christians interpret Christ being the "Son of God"? What exactly does that mean? I realize the answer will depend on the particular denomination of Christianity whose views are being expressed. I am particularly interested in *an overview* of the more popular churches such as the Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox but welcome answers explaining the views of any group as long as the group in question is clearly stated. --- NOTES I have read the posts below, but though related, none of them addresses the same question: - If Christ is considered the 'Son of God' then how is He a part of a Trinity? - Does the Bible have any proof that Jesus Christ is the Only-begotten Son of God? This one was quite interesting, and the accepted answer states that <code class="inline-code ">His &quot;sonship&quot; is unique, one-of-a-kind, and distinct from all others</code>, which brings us straight back to my question, how is it distinct? - "Jesus Christ God's Only Son Our Lord" Again, very interesting, but it while it explains the contradiction inherent in Christ being the _only_ Son of God while we are all His children, it does not explain in what sense Christ is a son of God.
terdon (410 rep)
Jul 7, 2013, 12:15 AM • Last activity: Dec 24, 2025, 02:05 PM
2 votes
2 answers
2846 views
Where were Satan and his angels when God devastated the Earth during Noah's Flood?
There is no doubt that angels (both the Holy and the Fallen) had a strong influence in the antediluvian world. Satan was the serpent of Eden. But, during Noah's Flood, where was he, what was he and his angels doing. Are the apostate angels trapped in Hell of 2 Peter 2:4-5 and Jude 1:6 the parents of...
There is no doubt that angels (both the Holy and the Fallen) had a strong influence in the antediluvian world. Satan was the serpent of Eden. But, during Noah's Flood, where was he, what was he and his angels doing. Are the apostate angels trapped in Hell of 2 Peter 2:4-5 and Jude 1:6 the parents of the Nephilim of Genesis 6:1-4?
Felipe Ligeiro (129 rep)
Jul 13, 2023, 10:42 AM • Last activity: Dec 24, 2025, 06:06 AM
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