As far as I have been able to determine, **John Calvin** never created a succinct, ordered list of the steps of salvation (though one could be derived from statements in his *Institutes*). Who was the first Reformed scholar to propose such a concise list and call it the *Ordo Salutis*? Some possibilities that I have seen suggested (by an AI but without sources) are **Zacharias Ursinus** and **Herman Bavinck**. This is a variation on an earlier question: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/83126/what-is-the-most-authentic-reformed-ordo-salutis

This question follows on from a comment made in the previous closed question . The Wikipedia article on the subject of *ordo salutis* quotes and lists the following, in the following order, as 'Calvinistic' : >Predestination Election Calling Regeneration Faith Repentance Justification Adoption Sanctification Perseverance Glorification This list is attributed by Wikipedia to : >"The 'Order of Salvation'" In Feinberg, John S. (ed.). The Cross and Salvation: The Doctrine of Salvation. Wheaton: Good News Publishers. pp. 36–44. ISBN 978-1-58134-812-5. Would Reformed Calvinistic Baptists consider this to be the correct and definitive *ordo salutis* or is there another, or others, considered more authentic ?

According to Calvinism, is a man justified by his faith or by a "limited atonement" by Christ? Isn't "limited atonement" another gospel? If justification is all of grace, through faith, how is a "limited atonement" relevant at all? > **The covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception.** This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of the divine judgment, and is without doubt subordinate to God’s purpose of **eternal election**. (BOOK THIRD. THE MODE OF OBTAINING THE GRACE OF CHRIST. THE BENEFITS IT CONFERS, AND THE EFFECTS RESULTING FROM IT. Chapter 21, sentence 1 and 2) >The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. We, indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former (see chap. 22 sec. 1). (Ibid, chapter 21, subchapter 5) There is much to be found within the texts , those are limited examples.

Some random quotes from online Trinitarian sources. >The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and life. >The most profound and mysterious doctrines of the Christian faith: the Trinity. >The mystery of the Trinity doctrine is the manifestation of three distinct persons in one God. Given the very specific statements of Jesus who declared the Father was the only true God, with no mention of a spirit 'person', and literally *excluding* himself from being God, this biblical evidence from the 'only Savior and Lord' would seem a sufficient explanation. The Biblical evidence describing the one God, Yahweh, is not a mystery, Jesus is not a mystery especially as his God is the same as ours. The Apostles affirmed these simple truths, especially about the man Jesus, who again, is never described as God, so no mystery there either.

Sometimes Christians will doubt their faith and I was wondering is the doubt come from God or Satan? Is there evidence to back up your answer?

I have created the following end times timeline of the 7 years tribulation: **In year 1:** - Antichrist makes covenant with many for 7 years (Daniel 9:27); **From year 1 to year 3.5:** - Beginning of sorrows (wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes etc.); **In year 3.5:** - Abomination of desolation; - The Antichrist becomes the ruler of the world; - Christians go to the wilderness; **From year 3.5 to year 7:** - The Great Tribulation; - The false prophet makes the world population to receive the mark of the beast; - The false prophet creates the image of the beast; - The false prophet makes the world population to worship the beast; - War with the saints; **In year 7:** - Rapture; Are there any End Times theorists see it playing out similar to this?

How would Bible Trinitarians answer the following questions regarding the Most High, because they seem to reveal who the Most High is with regards to the Holy Spirit. **1. Is the Most High Holy?** This is the first word in the phrase of the Holy Spirit, and if the answer to this is yes, then this can be seen from the four living creatures who say, "**Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was, is now, and will be to come.**" **2. Is the Most High a Spirit?** This is the second word in the phrase Holy Spirit, and if the answer to this is yes, then the Most High is the Spirit and, "**those who worship him must do so in Spirit and truth.**" If the two questions above show us that the Most High is indeed **Holy**, and a **Spirit**, as the **Holy Spirit**, how do Bible Trinitarians or those who believe the spirit is a separate person from the Father respond?

According to Catholicism, to what persons beside God aka The Father are Catholics authorized to pray? >[Mat 6:9 KJV] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

As an outsider, I am under the impression that at the current time, Catholicism would generally be considered a "low-demand" religion. However, I'm wondering if they emphasize a duty to evangelize, as many Protestant Churches do.

> Remember and do not forget how you provoked the Lord your God to wrath > in the wilderness (Deuteronomy 9:7 ESV). It seems like this passage describes God being provoked (changed) by the people of Israel. This is a problem, because it contradicts the doctrine of divine immutability, that is often inferred from Malachi 3:6. > For I the Lord do not change... (Malachi 3:6 ESV) Is there a way to resolve this apparent contradiction?

At Matthew 26:14-15 we read: > Then one of the twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, “What will you give me if I betray him to you?” They paid him thirty pieces of silver. I would like to know if the amount of money Judas was paid had any specific significance, or was it a random amount offered for the life of Jesus by the High Priests? What do the Catholic teachings say on the subject ?

I noticed Hebrews is really the place where the Priesthood is discussed as how the priestly ceremonies are related to the Christian faith. It seem rather complete and in depth. Hebrews says a whole lot about the priesthood and even goes into ‘great depth’ explaining things ‘difficult to understand’. It covers many great mysteries fulfilled in Christ through the priesthood. As far as I know, Catholics view the mass as kind of mystical repetition of the sacrifice of Christ. Not that Christ is sacrificed again but that his one and only past sacrifice is somehow 'redone' by himself in an unexplainable way. Catholic priests officiate in the mass so that Christ, as the high priest ‘sacrifices himself’ in the present tense. This is done in order to further sanctify those who partake of the ceremony. If this were true, I can’t fathom why the author of the Hebrews would not somewhere indicate recognition of the existence of this practice. Would he not link it into his teaching of the priesthood and the high priest? **If believers were regularly partaking in a ‘mass’ with an understanding that Christ was sacrificed over and over, why does the Epistle to the Hebrews not seem to be aware of such an important aspect of the priesthood while it explains the meaning of the priesthood?**

What Roman Catholic doctrines are based only in the 7 books canonized by the Roman church, but not accepted by Protestants. (e.g., Tobit, Judith, Maccabees, the additions to Daniel and Esther, etc...)

An answer to this question, [*How do Protestants make claims to follow scripture and ignore the traditions of the ancient church which produced the scriptures?*](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/104738/how-do-protestants-make-claims-to-follow-scripture-and-ignore-the-traditions-of/104743#104743&:~:text=the%20Spirit%20is%20still%20witnessing,leave%20the%20Catholic%20Church) , concerning the difference between Protestant and Catholic Bibles, contains: > … the Spirit is still witnessing to Catholics about the canon. If the true canon is the smaller Protestant canon, then some Catholics would be persuaded by the Spirit to leave the Catholic Church, > … > Likewise, if the Protestant canon is wrong, then many people will feel the Spirit's witnessing to a larger canon. Another question, [*Which doctrines are based solely on the Deuterocanonical books?*](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/7369/which-doctrines-are-based-solely-on-the-apocrypha) , is about doctrines that Protestants are missing out on by not accepting the Apocrypha, corresponding to the second case above. This question is about the first case: **What Protestant doctrines are refuted only by the [Deuterocanonical books](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books)?**

>Matt 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Given that, >1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Studying comparative Christianity, I've found many differing theological (and christological) positions where adherents of the religion disagree on the nature of God and Christ within Scripture. I have found nine positions thus far, have I missed any on the list? ----- 1. Universalist Unitarian 2. Angelomorphic Unitarian 3. Modalist Unitarian 4. Adoptionist Unitarian 5. Modalist Binitarian 6. Bitheist Binitarian 7. Modalist Trinitarian 8. Tritheist Trinitarian 9. Modalist Quadrinitarian 10. Quadtheist Quadrinitarian

This is how it's mentioned in the Bible: > Then Ezra blessed the LORD the great God. And all the people answered, "Amen, Amen!" while lifting up their hands; then they bowed low and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. > > Nehemiah 8:6 but only Muslims pray with their faces to the ground. I would like to know what Bible verses show the prescriptive way to pray?

*Edit* > "This question is similar to: Are the words that Jesus spoke the > Logos?. If you believe it’s different, please edit the question, make > it clear how it’s different and/or how the answers on that question > are not helpful for your problem."* This isn't the same. The answer is inadequate with no "scriptural" basis, explanation for Exodus 3:15, and is based off of sheer conjecture. ---------- Greetings and peace be with you. I hope this isn't too controversial, for all I care about is the truth. I was an atheist for over 20+ years who "converted" just 3 years ago. Not seeing "jesus" in the original Greek writings, and the nomina sacra being used in the Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus instead of "ΙΗΣΟΥΣ" led me to a deeper study. It goes from "IY"(Nomina Sacra), "ΙΗΣΟΥΣ/Ἰησοῦς", "Iesus", and then to "Jesus". But what really matters is The Word itself. What does the Word say? John 1:1 > In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word > was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were > made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In Him was > life, and that life was the light of men. "Word" is from the Greek word "Logos", that is normally translated as "Word", but can also be as "Speech". HE was Elohim(God) and with Elohim from the beginning. The Son was the first "born" over all creation, meaning HE was not "created".(Colossians 1:15) Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. HE was called "The Author of Life".(Acts 3:15) HE even calls HIMSELF "the Originator of God’s creation".(Revelation 3:14) Paul even says HE was, "Given The Name above all Names". We are told that YHWH is the Most High over all, for David said, "For You, O YHWH, are Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods."(Psalm 97:9), as just one example. HE is also "The Prophet" who was told to come as Israel's mediator just like Moses.(Deuteronomy 18:15-19, Acts 7:37) We see that YHWH created the Heaven and Earth by HIS Voice... The "Logos", or the Hebrew equivalent "Dabar". Psalm 148:5 > Let them praise the name of YHWH, for He gave the command and they > were created. Genesis 1:3 > And Elohim(God) said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. So according the the writings(scripture) The Son is the literal Voice of Elohim(God). Who was born, not created, meaning the first thing The Father did was speak. Then, everything made through that Voice(The Son). The question is wouldn't that mean HE, The Son, told Moses HIS Name in Exodus 3:15? Can we now take John 5:43, and John 17:11-12 literal? Exodus 3:15 - Literal Standard Version > And God says again to Moses, “Thus you say to the sons of Israel: > YHWH, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of > Jacob, has sent me to you; this [is] My Name for all time, and this > [is] My memorial, to generation [and] generation. John 5:46 > If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote > about Me.

Years ago I heard or read something to the effect that when God in His sovereignty wants to cause something to happen, though he could do that thing directly (and often does), he instead causes his people to pray for that thing to be done, then answers their prayer. The context may have been Holy Spirit revival. **What Christian writers have said things to that effect? What quotes from their writings speak about this?** The way I remember it being said was, “When God wants something done, first he makes his people pray.” Of course I heard this about thirty years ago and my memory is not what it was, so the words could be quite different. It is likely that the originator lived in the early 20th century, but he may have been quoting someone from the 19th century. I ask this question here because my trusty AI Chat agrees that the concept is an acceptable one in Reformed, Arminian and Catholic traditions but can’t pin down a particular writer or quote. For the sake of curiosity, here is what Google Gemini Flash Thinking 2.0 had to say: —— **Thoughts** > Here's a thinking process to arrive at the answer about theologians discussing God initiating prayer: > * Deconstruct the Core Question: The central idea is about reversed causality in prayer. Instead of believer → prayer → God's action, it's God's will → causes prayer → God's action (in line with his pre-existing will). The key phrase provided is "When God wants something done, first he causes his people to pray." > * Identify Keywords and Concepts: Extract the crucial terms to guide the search for relevant theological concepts: > * God's initiative/sovereignty: This is the driving force. God is not passively waiting for human prayer; he actively works. > * Prayer: The means by which God's will is carried out, in this specific reversed causal framework. Prayer isn't just asking; it's a divinely orchestrated action. > * Causality/Reversed Causality: The core of the question. The typical cause-and-effect relationship is flipped. > * God's will/desire: The ultimate origin of the action. > * Believers/People of God: The instruments God uses in this process. > * Theologians: The specific domain to explore for answers. > * Brainstorm Theological Themes and Doctrines: Connect the keywords to broader theological concepts: > * Divine Sovereignty/Providence: God's ultimate control and governance over all things. This is a strong starting point. If God is sovereign, he can initiate prayer. > * Divine Grace/Prevenient Grace: God's grace precedes human action, enabling it. Prevenient grace (especially in Arminian theology) could be relevant here – God’s grace before the prayer. > * The Holy Spirit's work in prayer: The Spirit is often seen as the one who inspires and guides prayer. Romans 8:26 ("Spirit intercedes") is a key verse here. The Spirit's role could be the mechanism by which God "causes" prayer. > * The Economy of Salvation/Divine Economy: God's plan and methods for working in the world. Prayer could be part of this divine economy. > * Inspiration/Illumination (related to Scripture and prayer): God can inspire thoughts and desires, which could include the desire to pray. > * Consider Theological Traditions: Think about which traditions might emphasize God's initiative more: > * Calvinism/Reformed Theology: Strong emphasis on God's sovereignty and predestination. Likely to affirm God's initiative in prayer. > * Arminianism/Wesleyan Theology: Emphasizes prevenient grace and the Holy Spirit's work. Also potentially relevant. > * Catholic Theology: Also emphasizes God's grace and the role of the Holy Spirit in prayer. > * Formulate Search Strategies and Keywords for Research (if needed for a real research task): If you needed to actually find theologians who said this, you'd use keywords like: > * "God initiates prayer" > * "Divine initiative prayer" > * "Sovereignty and prayer" > * "Holy Spirit inspires prayer" > * "Prevenient grace prayer" > * "Theology of prayer divine initiative" > * (Combine with names of theologians known for sovereignty or pneumatology – e.g., "Calvin prayer," "Edwards prayer," "Wesley prayer," "Barth prayer," "Rahner prayer"). > * Recall Specific Theologians and Texts (Internal Knowledge): Draw upon existing knowledge of theological figures. Think about theologians who are known for: > * Sovereignty: Calvin, Edwards, Augustine (to some extent). > * Pneumatology (Holy Spirit): Wesley, Pentecostal theologians, Eastern Orthodox theologians (though Eastern Orthodox might frame it differently, closer to theosis and divine energies). > * Grace: Augustine, Aquinas, Reformers, Wesley. > * Focus on Key Theological Themes and Refine the Answer: Based on the brainstorming and recall, structure the answer around these core points: > * Affirmative Answer: Yes, this idea is present in Christian theology. > * Central Doctrine: Divine Sovereignty: Frame it within God's sovereignty. This is the overarching theological umbrella. > * Mechanism: Holy Spirit: Highlight the Holy Spirit as the agent who inspires and enables prayer according to God's will. Connect to Romans 8:26 and the Spirit interceding. > * Specific Theological Traditions: Point out that Calvinism and Reformed theology strongly affirm this because of their emphasis on sovereignty. Also mention Arminianism and Wesleyan theology due to prevenient grace and Spirit's work. > * Examples (even if not direct quotes in this instance – you could search for quotes if necessary, but the prompt is more about the concept): Think of theologians associated with these traditions (Calvin, Edwards, Wesley, etc.). > * Nuance and Balance: Acknowledge that this isn't always the only or dominant way of thinking about prayer in all Christian traditions. Maintain a balanced perspective and recognize the importance of genuine human agency in prayer as well. Avoid presenting a deterministic view where humans are mere puppets. > * Vocabulary: Use theological terms appropriately (sovereignty, providence, grace, Holy Spirit, etc.). > * Review and Refine the Answer: Read through the formulated answer. Is it clear, concise, and accurate? Does it address the prompt fully? Does it provide helpful examples and context? Make any necessary adjustments to improve clarity and completeness. Ensure it directly answers the original question and provides sufficient supporting information and nuance. For instance, make sure to highlight why these theological traditions would affirm this concept (sovereignty, grace, Spirit's work). > **Response** Yes, this is a recognized concept in Christian theology, though it might not be the most frequently emphasized aspect of prayer in popular piety. The idea that God initiates prayer as part of his plan is definitely present in the writings and thoughts of various theologians across different Christian traditions. Here's a breakdown of theologians and theological concepts that speak to this idea: **Key Theologians and Theological Concepts:** * John Calvin and Reformed Theology: Calvin and the Reformed tradition strongly emphasize God's sovereignty. For Calvin, God's will is primary, and everything, including human actions and even prayers, occurs within the scope of his sovereign plan. While Calvin certainly believed in the sincerity and importance of human prayer, his theology of providence suggests that God can and does work to bring about his purposes, which might include prompting his people to pray. While I can't find a direct, quotable statement from Calvin saying "When God wants something done, first he causes his people to pray," his theology leans heavily in this direction. Consider his emphasis on God's initiative in salvation and in all things. If God initiates salvation, it's consistent to think he might also initiate prayer related to his purposes. * Jonathan Edwards and Puritan Theology: Edwards, a major figure in American Puritanism and Reformed theology, also stressed God's sovereignty. Puritan theology often emphasized God's active role in all aspects of life, including spiritual life. They would have seen prayer as a means appointed by God, and that God himself might move people to pray in accordance with his will. Again, while a direct quote matching your phrasing might be hard to find, the overall thrust of their theology supports this idea. Edwards and Puritans frequently discussed the Holy Spirit's work in prompting and enabling prayer. * Karl Barth and Neo-Orthodoxy: Barth, a 20th-century theologian, also placed a strong emphasis on God's initiative and sovereignty. His theology is Christocentric, meaning everything is understood in light of Christ and God's self-revelation in Christ. For Barth, God is always the initiator in the relationship with humanity. While Barth talks about prayer as human response, it is always response to God's prior action. It's plausible to see in Barth's thought that God, desiring a certain outcome, could move people to pray as part of enacting his will. Barth's emphasis on revelation preceding response implies God is always first. * The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit (Pneumatology): Across many Christian traditions, the Holy Spirit is understood as the agent of God who works within believers. The Holy Spirit is often seen as the one who inspires prayer, guides prayer, and intercedes in prayer. Romans 8:26 says, "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words." This verse is often interpreted as the Holy Spirit prompting and shaping our prayers, aligning them with God's will. If the Holy Spirit is inspiring prayer, it is ultimately God working to cause prayer. * Augustine of Hippo and the Doctrine of Grace: Augustine's theology of grace emphasizes God's prevenient grace – grace that comes before human action, enabling it. Augustine's view on prayer in relation to grace could be interpreted as God's grace moving people to pray, which is a prerequisite for God to act in response. Augustine’s idea that even the desire to pray is a gift from God aligns with the concept you're asking about. * Mystical Traditions: Mystical traditions within Christianity often emphasize a more passive and receptive posture in prayer. In these traditions, the initiative in prayer is often seen as coming from God. Contemplative prayer, for example, is about opening oneself to God's presence and allowing God to work within, which could include God initiating the very desire and movement towards prayer. **Phrases and Concepts Used:** * Divine Initiative: This is a broad term that encompasses the idea that God is the first actor in all things related to salvation and the divine-human relationship, including prayer. * Prevenient Grace: As mentioned with Augustine, this emphasizes God's grace coming before human action, potentially including the action of prayer. * The Holy Spirit Inspiring Prayer: The concept of the Holy Spirit as the one who guides, prompts, and enables prayer naturally leads to the idea that God is initiating prayer through the Spirit. * God "Stirring Up" Hearts to Pray: This is a more common, less theological phrase but captures the idea of God actively moving people to prayer. * God "Burdening" People to Pray: This phrase, often used in intercessory prayer circles, suggests a sense of divine prompting and urgency to pray for a specific matter, implying God's initiative. **Important Nuances and Considerations:** * Balance with Human Agency: While emphasizing God's initiative is important, it's crucial to maintain a balance and not negate human agency and sincerity in prayer. Christians believe in genuine human prayer that expresses real desires and petitions to God. The idea of God initiating prayer doesn't necessarily make human prayer insincere or merely mechanical. Instead, it suggests that even our sincere prayers can be, in some sense, divinely prompted and aligned with God's purposes. * Mystery of Divine-Human Interaction: The relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom, and between divine initiative and human response in prayer, is ultimately a mystery. Theologians attempt to articulate these concepts, but there is a limit to human comprehension of how these things work together. * Not Always the Primary Focus: While the idea of God initiating prayer is present, it's not always the dominant or most common way prayer is discussed in Christian contexts. Often, the emphasis is on the believer's responsibility to pray, to bring needs to God, and to seek his will. However, understanding God's potential initiative adds a deeper dimension to the theology of prayer. In conclusion, yes, the idea that God initiates prayer as part of enacting his will is a theologically sound concept supported by various theologians and theological traditions within Christianity. While a direct quote matching your exact phrasing might be difficult to pinpoint, the underlying theological principles, particularly those related to divine sovereignty, the work of the Holy Spirit, and prevenient grace, strongly suggest that this understanding of prayer has been and continues to be present in Christian thought.

The Bible does not strike me as welcoming to transgenderism: > The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God. -- Deuteronomy 22:5 And it is not hard to find knowledgeable Christian leaders (of various denominations) denouncing transgenderism via a web search. Incompatibility between transgenderism and Christianity seems like the norm. AthanasiusOfAlex , 2015, writes "transgenderism is deeply problematic" explaining that: - God created man and women (Genesis 1:27 ), and that - "[a person's] body is just as much a part of his being as his soul". However, Wikipedia explains that (liberal) Protestantism accepts transgender people: > Within mainline, or more specifically liberal, Protestantism, several denominations or regional bodies within denominations have grown increasingly accepting and supportive of transgender members and rights. This leads me to my question: **Question**: How does liberal Protestantism reconcile supporting transgenderism with what the Bible teaches? I'm not well-informed about Christian denominations, so I don't know precisely which Protestant subset has a "transgenderism is okay" stance. I'm interested in how they come to the conclusion that "transgenderism is okay" while others do not.