I have approached a Madhva Hindu to discuss religion with him. The Madhvas follow a particular school of Vedanta in Hinduism called Dwaita Vedanta that had been, according to the Madhvas, revived by a philosopher named Madhvacharya . It is a monotheistic school of Hindu philosophy that believes the Vishnu to be the Supreme Being and the gods (called devatas) are His great devotees (akin to the Abrahamic concept of angels). The Madhva I talked to when discussing religion said he respected many parts of Islamic law, appreciated Muslims' staunch faith in monotheism, and believed that the vast majority of Muslims are good people. He also believed, when he learned about Mohammad (peace be upon him), that Mohammad was probably a good-spirited man with a simple heart. **However, when he learned about Islamic views on God, he considered it blasphemy. He mentioned that his religion staunchly upholds the absolute perfection of the Supreme Being. He said that an absolutely perfect God is completely blissful and can never have any incentive to create souls and therefore souls were always coexisting in God. He said to believe otherwise means to accept God as not perfectly blissful and therefore not perfect.** When I further tried to discuss with him, he went in great detail to counter me. He made the following arguments to assert that the his religion and the Hindu scriptures (Vedas) are correct. He also said that the arguments he gave were not his but can be found in the works of Madhvacharya such as *Tattva Sankhyaanam,* etc. The Madhvas worship Madhvacharya as the great messenger of Vishnu and the Madhva I talked to asserted that only a true messenger of God can provide strong, scripture-independent arguments for the existence of his Lord and the veracity of the scriptures that extol his Master. The arguments can be summarized as follows. He used some modern terminology for ease of presentation. >>The world we see contains composite entities. A composite entity is a dependent reality because it depends on its components. The universe is a composite entity and therefore is a dependent reality. It also consists of dependent realities. There cannot be an infinite chain of dependent realities because then nothing will ever come into existence. Therefore, these dependent realities depend on a common independent reality. Let us call this God. **God must be a fundamental entity since a composite entity is a dependent reality. The dependent realities are controlled by God and this requires the independent reality to be intelligent. Thus God is an intelligent being who knows**. Vishnu is the Supreme Being. >>From then one can start drawing the following conclusions under **the assumption that the Supreme Being is an embodiment of absolute perfection**. This assumption can be used to understand the diversity in the world. >>***The supremacy and blissfulness of Vishnu imply the eternality of the Jiva Atmas (which means individual souls)***. Because the Supreme Lord is always perfectly blissful, He is eternally self-satisfied. Therefore He has no reason to create Jiva Atmas to worship Him or to punish. Since He is supreme, there can exist no agent that creates souls without His will. Hence Jiva Atmas were never created and eternally exist with Him. ———————————————————— **Correction:** I talked to a more experienced follower of the Madhva philosophy and he said that the Madhva follower I talked to got the origin of souls argument wrong. This experienced follower said that according to Madhvacharya, souls though beginningless, are not without cause. God is the only entity who is beginningless and without cause. Souls came into existence in the beginning of reality (the infinite past) as an immediate consequence of His supremacy and Him being an embodiment of truth and absolute perfection. He said that God is an embodiment of truth and that it is the intrinsic nature of truth to maximize to the fullest extent possible while remaining unaltered. Because God is Supreme His powers cannot be checked. Thus God, whose intrinsic nature is to maximize to the fullest extent possible, instantaneously (in zero seconds because nothing can limit His powers) created an infinite number of reflections (Pratibimba in Sanskrit) and these are the individual souls. Thus from the very beginning (infinite past) there were an infinite number of souls. Thus souls are beginningless but not without cause. God is the only beginningless entity who is without cause and so He is special. In response to Islam’s criticism that the beginningless of souls and God is an assassination of His grandness, the more experienced Madhva follower said, “Not so. The beginninglessness of God is of a higher status than that of others because He is independently beginningless while souls, fundamental matter, and the ontological duality are dependently beginningless. Thus, God alone is The Beginningless One due to His independence. The fact that you can be beginningless and still not surpass the beginningless of God elavates His status even further. What makes the philosophy of Madhvacharya unique is that it elevates the status even higher than the status given to Him in other monotheistic schools because Madhvacharya showed what others thought was unimaginable. Thus when the Vedic concepts of reincarnation and beginningless of souls only serve to show the majestic grandeur of God.” ———————————————————— >>***Because the Supreme Lord is solely independent, all of the Jiva Atmas are under His control.*** They cannot act, grow, and develop on their own. >>Let us make the reasonable assumption that the number of Jiva Atmas is infinite. ***An Infinite number of Jiva Atmas imply the existence of unique intrinsic personalities from an application of Chatton's anti razor ("If three things are not enough to verify an affirmative proposition about things, a fourth must be added and so on.")***. There are an infinite amount of Jiva Atmas, each unique from the others. Because there are infinite Jiva Atmas, there exists all possible intrinsic personalities which can be classified as follows: those who want to love God (mukti-yogas), those who want to remain in sense pleasures and not love God (nitya samsarins), and those who want to hate God, yagnas, moral rules, and those who love Him (tamo yogas). **After all, if there are an unlimited number of souls, what is preventing a hater of God from existing? Nothing, and so by application of the anti razor, we can posit the existence of haters to make reality complete and comprehensive.** There is a whole range of intrinsic natures that fall into the category of divine natures. The same is true for demonic natures and in-between natures. The mukti-yojas can thrive only in a blissful and loving environment filled with devotion towards Lord Vishnu while the tamo yogas can thrive in a painful and agonizing environment filled with hatred towards Lord Vishnu. (of course, anyone can thrive in a blissful environment, but if tamo-yogas are given a blissful environment then there would be no sense of justice in the universe: if perverse and spiteful people get bliss, what is the point of being good, kind, and cooperative?) >>***Intrinsic natures of the Jiva Atmas imply the existence of the desire to achieve appropriate happiness and the incentive to immediately act to get that preferred bliss***. Each Jiva Atma wants to achieve happiness that is on par with its intrinsic nature. They therefore have a natural incentive to act in a way to get their preferred happiness. No Jiva Atma is unsure of its intrinsic nature and therefore those who did not want to act at the very beginning (i.e. from the infinite past) are the ones whose intrinsic personality is to remain absolutely aloof from loving and hating God. These Jiva Atmas would choose, in the very beginning, to remain in a coma-like state so that they are forever unaware of their surroundings. For them, happiness is no awareness and no experience. >>***Lord Vishnu’s all-blissful, all-merciful, and perfectly just nature implies His desire for each Jiva Atma to grow and develop to their full potential and reach its desired state of happiness without successfully infringing on the intrinsically desired happiness of other Jiva Atmas existed for all time. There was never a time He did not want the Jiva Atmas to grow and develop towards their destiny because Lord Vishnu’s all-blissful, all-merciful, and perfectly just nature implies He never wanted to delay any Jiva Atma from achieving the perfection it intrinsically prefers.*** Therefore, Lord Vishnu, from the infinite past, actively drives the dependent Jiva Atmas through His will. His will is an embodiment of perfect justice based on cause and effect. Karma is therefore a system that takes each Jiva Atma to its intrinsically preferred state appropriate for its exact nature. Jiva Atmas having divine (demonic) intrinsic natures will eventually reach Lord Vishnu (eternal damnation in Andha-tamas, a place where immense pain and agony serve to reinforce these Jiva Atma's desire to hate Him and a place where these unique entities can thrive) and those whose intrinsic natures are in between the divine and the demonic are destined to stay forever in worldly existence. The grace of God is with everyone due to His perfect nature and everyone will reach their preferred salvation, but salvation does not need to mean attaining the abode of Lord Narayana. Lord Vishnu’s all-merciful nature reflects the absence of an iota of bias in Him. >>Note: Experience also shows that everyone’s life is different and therefore it is quite reasonable to say that the trajectories of two Jiva Atmas can never be the same (but can be very similar). The nature of trajectory is determined by the intrinsic nature. Therefore, no Jiva Atma’s intrinsic nature exactly matches that of another Jiva Atma; however, two Jiva Atmas can have very similar intrinsic nature >>**Omniscience of Vishnu implies predestination for everyone.** The omniscience of Lord Vishnu, who is not under the control of time, implies that He can see, at once, the exact trajectory each will take to meet its ultimate fate. He sees exactly how each Jiva Atma will forever respond to righteousness, unrighteousness, etc. **For an infinite being whose knowledge is perfect and infinite, “forever” is not unbounded and not unknown for Him**. >>***All of this implies the existence of reincarnation from the infinite past.*** Each Jiva Atma wants to achieve happiness that is on par with its intrinsic nature. They therefore have a natural incentive to act in a way to grow and develop to their full potential and get their preferred happiness. Since they were in His will of perfect justice from the very beginning, all Jiva Atmas began to act from the very beginning. Currently, we all know we were born from our mother's womb and see ourselves acting. Since the Jiva Atma within my physical body has been acting from the infinite past, the Jiva Atma within my physical body has reincarnated and had lived as other beings in the past. ***The correct argument for reincarnation rests on the unshakable conviction that the Supreme Lord is the embodiment of perfection and perfectly loves us all***. >>Experience shows there are two types of bodies: those that only have a yoni (biological female) and those that have a linga (biological male or biological hermaphrodite). Of these two, the latter is intrinsically stronger, more dominating, and more suitable for pleasure. For instance, the males experience more pleasure during intercourse and are more likely to reach orgasm than the female body, underscoring that males satisfy their sexual needs more often than females. Because there are an infinite number of Jiva Atmas, all possible kinds of individual souls exist. We can divide them into two categories: souls that are eligible for a body with only a yoni and souls that can become eligible to have a body with a linga. The latter souls are of course eligible to have a body with only a yoni because if they are qualified with a body with more pleasure than they are naturally qualified to have a body with less pleasure. Let us define the former category of souls as female souls and the latter category of souls as male souls >> **If you believe that God is absolutely perfect, then you will believe that He never created souls and that reincarnation exists. Since you believe that God created souls and do not believe in reincarnation, you were told not to believe in a perfect God. That is a character assassination of the Almighty Lord** The Madhvas, thought monotheists, still worship the gods (devatas) and still pray to them. However, they do not worship the gods as God but as great devotees of the Supreme Being who are eternally superior to humans. They only pray to the gods for devotion to the Supreme Being because only such a prayer, according to them, makes the gods happy. **My Question: How to respond to this?**

I read a christian argument that keeping aside the concept of actions befitting his glory if he wills to do something then there should be no limitations and he doesn't need to be like creation. It seems like God his making self a human and saying he needs a spouse to have a son. Why quran depicts begetting only as sexual activity which we don't or perhaps pagans would also haven't believed?

Prophet muhammad saw is the last prophet sent by Allah so that means all other people who preach after his death are fraud and all other religions that came after his death are also fraud?

Last night I had a debate with my friend. It was about story of Ibrahim PBUH. Sura Al-An'am 74-83 http://quran.com/6/74-83 According to my common sense & common language, Quran told us that Ibrahim AS search the concept of worshipping one Allah as creator of everything (monotheism) only with his mind. Of course after he get it. He would think that Allah has guide his thought to the straight path. But, it doesn't tell that he don't have any his personal thought before came to the conclusion (monotheism). The complete story from my perspectives are: 1. (Young) Ibrahim AS sensed something wrong with his father idols-worshipping practice. [Al An'am: 74] 2. Then he left his father, went into wilderness. In Allah SWT POV, wilderness (refer to event in 3 following ayat) will make him the people of faith. [Al An'am: 75] 3. Saw star, considering it as lord, then left it as lord because it dissapear [Al An'am: 76] 4. Saw moon, did the same as with star before, but after left moon as lord, realized the need of guidance from lord (might hinted that already had the idea of Allah but might still want the real presence of Allah) [Al An'am: 77] 5. Saw sun, saw it as a bigger one, considering it as lord, then left it and said no longer associate Allah as his people does (might be no longer want the real presence of Allah). [Al An'am: 78] 6. Declare that he only accept the creator of sky (star, moon, sun included) and earth, inclining to the truth, and not (stop) associate others with Allah. [Al An'am: 79] 7. Started preaching what he declare to his people. Allah inspire him the arguments though. [Al An'am: 80-83] However, my friend didn't agree. Here his points: 1. Ibrahim PBUH is guided by Allah, he wouldn't ever consider to associate Allah, in his whole life. Therefore, he never searched monotheism with his own free will. He just know. 2. Thus, Al An'am: 76-78 was just a debate from him to convince his people. I can't accept his point because 1. Yes, Ibrahim PBUH is known of the closeness with Allah. But my question is just in a certain phase in his life. Prophet Muhammad PBUH once not a prophet. Hitler once not a fuhrer. Why can't Ibrahim PBUH once not a monotheist (hanif) at least in his searching phase? Or, why can't Ibrahim PBUH search his own concept of God, not 'just know' without free will because of divine knowledge? 2. If Al An'am: 76-78 is a rhetoric debate, it must be shown clearly. Ibrahim PBUH POV or narrator in Quran (Allah) must explicitly say it before or after. Otherwise, it'll make the reader confused. Bad story telling. 3. Again, the debate scenario has very weak probability. Al An'am: 75 says that the wilderness **will show (or make) Ibrahim PBUH** be among the certain. If debate scenario is true, Al An'am: 75 will says the wilderness (realm of heaven and earth) logic at ayat 76-78 is **for his people, not him**. My friend couldn't reply my objections, so I can't accept his point. My point is contradict with his rule about Ibrahim PBUH and other prophet, so he can't accept mine. So it's a deadlock until now. Please help us. *Interesting trivia: there is no this kind of Ibrahim PBUH story in Judaism or Christianity POV.* ---------- Our debate actually connected to another more fundamental question: Can anyone from a far-deep remote isolated area (not knowing Islam and other major religions), grasp the idea like in the first shahadat, only by using his mind ? I'm not asking that will she/he become prophet too. Because Muslim can only confirm prophecy stuff from Quran or Hadis. Nor I ask this to know about the condition of people at remote area at afterlife. I'm asking this in a secular way, without any reference to Islamic terminology.

A definition of *monism* is > a theory or doctrine that denies the existence of a distinction or duality in... God and the world. In Islam, *shirk* is defined as > idolatry or polytheism, which means deification, or worship of deity, gods, or anything other than Allah. It seems to be the case that monism is a form of shirk because monism asserts that the world (including its inhabitants) and Allah are a part of the same entity. Indeed, the Qur'an repeatedly makes assertions like in An-Naml (27:63) > Is there any god with Allah? Exalted is Allah above all that they associate as partners to Him. The only possible argument that I can find in favor of monism in the Qur'an is Sad (38:72) where it says > So, when I have fashioned [Adam] and breathed into him from *my soul* then fall down to him prostrate. This phrase "my soul" specifically uses the word "Ruhi" in Arabic, for which I have seen several translations, including spirit, soul and even Gabriel (the last one is unlikely here of course). I don't know the meaning of the word and I doubt anyone else does either, as it it said in Al-Isra (17:85) that > And they ask you about the *Ruhi*. Say: the *Ruhu* is of the Command of my Lord [meaninig the knowledge of which is only with my Lord] and you have not been given of knowledge but a little. It is this question of "human divinity" that I have been pondering, especially because it seems to be a rising belief among "spiritual" non-Muslims (though this is just a personal impression). I am fairly certain that it is not an acceptable belief in Islam, but just to be sure, **can someone let me know the correct interpretation of Sad (38:72) as quoted, and what Islam thinks of monism in general?**

This question was from a Hindu That Islam is based on tawheed oness of Allah (god) if I believe that God has no image no idol not begotten doesn't have wife or child and believe in his uniqueness BUT don't accept prophet Muhammad saw and quran to be relevant to him, still do I have chance to enter jannah. From my point of view he is correct because there are many hadiths which the PRIMORDIAL SIN in islam that puts you in hell for eternity is shirk and it will be not forgived otherwise you have chance....and there is hadiths which says a man came to prophet claimed that he has love for surah ikhlas then the prophet saw said your love for this surrah will enter you jannah ( indicating that to enter jannah aleast you have to be monotheist)

Is worshiping the stone a pre-Islamic tradition? If so why are Muslims practicing a pagan tradition?