Why do the souls in purgatory suffer since there is no presence of the flesh? Catholics and the Saints pray for the souls in purgatory for the relief of their sufferings and the forgiveness of their sins.

This question relates somewhat to the one posted here: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/107637/are-indulgences-previously-granted-by-popes-still-in-effect-unless-specified-oth The following (which is part of a preparatory prayer for the *Stations of the Cross* devotion) is extracted from pg. 301 of [*Mary, Help of Christians*](https://ia801604.us.archive.org/20/items/MaryHelpOfChristians/MaryHelpOfChristians_text.pdf) I have long been under the impression that an Indulgence can be gained either for oneself or for the souls in Purgatory (but not both). After reading the above, I am not so sure. QUESTION: May an indulgence simultaneously be obtained **both** for oneself and for the souls in Purgatory (if it is not specified that it is applicable only to one or the other---such as, the indulgence associated with visiting a cemetery on All Souls Day.)? Thank you.

How does Catholicism respond to this? From what I understand in some responses, a Catholic may accept this text as referring to either the particular or general judgment, but I don’t understand how 1 Corinthians 3, if referring to the general judgment, could support the doctrine of purgatory. It seems to go against the dogma. Defense: 1 Corinthians 3:15 The passage that Catholics generally use—based on their own distortion—is the one that supposedly speaks of a purifying fire. They quote the following passage: >“If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.” (1 Corinthians 3:15 – Ave-Maria Version) To understand the nature of this “fire,” it is crucial to examine the context of the passage. In the Catholic version, the broader passage reads: >“If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.” (1 Corinthians 3:12–15) It is clear that Paul is not referring to an ordinary day, but to the Day of Judgment before the Tribunal of Christ. The challenge for defenders of the Catholic doctrine lies in the fact that, according to Scripture, this Day of Judgment takes place at Christ’s second coming—which has not yet occurred—and by then, there would no longer be any “purgatory” available for purification. That intermediate state would have given way to the eternal state. This is why Paul declares: >“In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge...” (2 Timothy 4:1) Paul refers to that “Day” for himself before dying, in the hope of being rewarded at the Tribunal of Christ at His coming: >“Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:8) We see that this Day of Judgment is intrinsically linked to Jesus’s return, when His Kingdom will be fully revealed. On that Day—according to Catholic teaching—there would no longer be a purgatory for postmortem purification. Therefore, the text cannot be referring to purgatory. Even the Jerusalem Bible (a Catholic Bible) has a footnote that nearly admits this verse does not speak about purgatory: >“1 Corinthians 3:15: That is, like someone escaping through flames. Such a person is saved barely. Purgatory is not directly considered here, though this text, along with others, was used by the Church to explain the doctrine.” Newer versions of the Jerusalem Bible now give a shorter note: >“1 Corinthians 3:15: That is, like someone escaping through flames. Such a person is saved barely.” It almost seems like they are omitting the earlier note that stated explicitly that purgatory is not considered in the text. To address this difficulty, Catholic theologians developed the doctrine of the “two judgments”—a concept absent from the Eastern Church. According to this Roman Catholic perspective, there are two judgments: the particular judgment, which occurs immediately after death and begins the intermediate state; and the general judgment, which takes place at Christ’s second coming, ending that intermediate state. Therefore, under this view, each person goes through two judgments: the individual and the general. They argue that 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the individual judgment after death, not the general judgment at Christ’s second coming. However, this explanation introduces significant theological problems. First, the context of 1 Corinthians 3:15 seems to point to the general judgment rather than a personal one. Verse 13 says: >“...the Day will bring it to light; it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.” There are two aspects supporting the idea of the general judgment at Christ’s second coming. First, the Day will “bring to light” the sins hidden during life. Jesus said that “nothing is hidden except to be made manifest, nor is anything secret except to come to light” (Mark 4:22). Historically, this has been interpreted as referring to the general judgment, when all will be gathered and the sins of each person exposed—nothing hidden will remain hidden. Moreover, verse 13 says the fire will test the work of “each one,” not of one person individually. The text implies a general assembly, where many are judged, not a private encounter with God after death.

For the sake of this question: Predestination = from the foundations of the universe, God chose who will be saved. Purgatory = a place where people suffer / are purified, and afterwards, they go to heaven. Now, the difference between heaven and hell is quite large (positive infinity and negative infinity). In the predestination case, the gap between those that go to heaven and those who go to hell is justified as follows: God chose to save some, and Jesus' blood paid their debt. In this case, salvation is a binary choice by God. In the purgatory case, everything looks more continuous: the gap also makes sense in that: depending on how "sinful" one was, one spends less or more time in purgatory. Now, what I don't understand about the Arminian case is as follows: *) there lacks a binary choice by God (since there was no predestination) *) yet, the suffering/punishment after death is _not_ continuous -- there's no purgatory Thus it seems very weird that on a continuous scale of human sinfulness, in the absence of a binary choice by God, the gain/loss after death is so different. ## Note Suggestions / clarifications to this question welcome.

We read in 2 Maccab 12:42-44: > Then, Judas, that great man, urged the people to keep away from sin, because they had seen for themselves what had happened to those men who had sinned. He also took up a collection from all his men, totaling about four pounds of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. Judas did this noble thing because he believed in the resurrection of the dead. If he had not believed that the dead would be raised, it would have been foolish and useless to pray for them. Denominations like Catholicism that believe in the existence of purgatory quote this OT reference in support of this belief. One would be interested to know how the other denominations interpret these verses.

According to Catholic teaching, can Requiem Masses be said for the souls of the deceased unbaptized?

What happens to the fruits of the Mass applied to a particular soul who is no longer in purgatory?

Month of November is dedicated to the deceased faithful. One of the Mass Intentions of Catholic Church for the month is to pray for those souls who have no one praying for them. That implies that those who die without relatives or friends to pray for them post- death, are in a disadvantageous position vis- a-vis those who have many. My question is: According to Catholic Church, how does God compensate those who die without relatives or friends to pray for their souls ?

I've been listening to this pastor from AoC Network that has been talking about Hades as there is/was a place of torment and a place of peace, before Christ's resurrection. This is where people who God deemed as men of God or Godly men and women went before the resurrection of Jesus on the Cross. He says he believes (because the bible is not clear on this subject) that people who have died now days who have not had the opportunity to know enough about Jesus or know who he is, can make a decision to invite Jesus into their heart to be their savior, this is where they go. This sounds like the Catholic belief in Purgatory. I know the Bible isn't clear on the matter of "The Bosom of Abraham" in today's world, but I've been taught that "The Bosom of Abraham" was closed off when Jesus came back for his disciples after his death and brought them to heaven with Him. Now, this pastor from AoC says he believes that the Hades that *was* called "The Bosom of Abraham" (which this pastor describes as a place of peace) still exists (but of course is *not* called "The Bosom of Abraham" because Abraham is up in heaven,) for those who have not heard of Jesus or had the opportunity to accept his free Gift of Salvation, i.e Babies who are unborn and those who die as infant babies who cannot know Jesus yet, because they cannot understand yet. My question is: "Does the side of Hades that was once "The Bosom of Abraham" still exist? Is this what the Catholic's call Purgatory, and where is this found in the Bible?"

Dante's Divine Comedy , the 14th century epic poem describing a journey through the various levels of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven and the persons or types of persons who inhabit each level (including some of Dante's living contemporaries). How much of Dante's description describes explicit Church doctrine as of his era, and to what extent, if any, did Dante influence Christian theology going forward?

Did any theologians think that the limbo for children (*limbus puerorum*) is part of purgatory?

I'm not Catholic, but I want to know the opinion and how Catholics who study the Word of God understand and interpret this passage of Genesis 6:1-4 that talks about a humanoid race of giants and if they went or can go to Purgatory. Purgatory is said to be a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in "the grace of God," are not wholly exempt from venial faults, or have not fully paid the due satisfaction for their transgressions. Do Nephilim have or had a chance to repent? Are they children of angels or mere mortal humans?

The [*Manual of Indulgences* published by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops](https://www.amazon.com/Manual-Indulgences-Conference-Catholic-Bishops-ebook/dp/B007TLEMEI/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1552929107&sr=8-1) states that > The faithful can obtain a partial or plenary indulgences for themselves, or they can apply them to the dead by way of suffrage. As far as I know, the Catholic Church acknowledges that deceased non-Catholic Christians can go to Purgatory (e.g. [this post](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/56279/14775) mentions that Anne Catherine Emmerich had visions of Protestants in Purgatory) so in theory such non-Catholic Christians would be eligible to have indulgences applied to them. Indeed, the *Manual of Indulgences* describes indulgences as a remission of temporal punishment for sins for a "properly disposed member of the *Christian* faithful" (as opposed to only the *Catholic* faithful): > An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment for sins, whose guilt is forgiven, which a properly disposed member of the Christian faithful obtains under certain and clearly defined conditions through the intervention of the Church, which, as the minister of Redemption, dispenses and applies authoritatively the treasury of the expiatory works of Christ and the saints. However, the description of an indulgence indicates that it is the Church which dispenses and applies indulgences, so it seems possible that the Church might choose to withhold the dispensing and application of indulgences to certain souls in Purgatory (e.g. Protestants who might have been anti-Catholic in life). Moreover, it's not clear what is considered a "properly disposed member" of the Christian faithful -- perhaps non-Catholic Christians might not be considered "properly disposed" and thus not eligible to have indulgences applied to them.1 **Has the Catholic Church explained whether or not indulgences can be obtained for non-Catholic Christians in Purgatory? If so, are there any limitations (e.g. perhaps only souls from certain denominations are eligible, similar to how [only Christians of certain denominations are permitted to receive Communion](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/33530/14775))?** ---- 1I suspect the meaning of "properly disposed" refers to the norm that > §1. In order to be capable of gaining indulgences one must be baptized, not excommunicated, and in the state of grace at least at the completion of the prescribed works. > > §2. To gain an indulgence, one must have at least the general intention of doing so and must carry out the enjoined works at the stated time and in due fashion, according to the sense of the grant. However, since I don't see a definition of exactly what "properly disposed" means I can't rule out the possibility that one must be Catholic to be "properly disposed".

We have the concept of purgatory. I read in different places that purgatory happens after death. But what should be stated clearly is whether they mean physical death or spiritual death when discussing this topic. Nobody on Earth is wise enough to explain what happens after physical death, so I'm interested in this concept after spiritual death while still alive, because that's what people care about to stay healthy and alive. Can someone explain how a person goes into purgatory, and how to get out? I'd prefer an answer from the Catholic religion.

From the preface by the publisher to Rev. Schouppe's *Purgatory Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints* : > Our suffrages or offerings for the dead are more agreeable to God than our prayers and good works for the living, for the Poor Souls are closer to God, stand in greater need and cannot help themselves. Is this true? I could not find a quote to back it up in the book.

Here is what I think I understand: A Catholic believes in something called **penance** that is understood as a sacrament by which forgiveness of sins (committed after baptism) is granted through the priest's ‘absolution’ to those with: a) true sorrow b) confess their sins and c) promise to **satisfy** for the confessed sin **The satisfactions are basically works necessary to ensure the temporal punishments due to sin are ‘satisfied’.** The idea is that although the ‘absolution’ remits both the guilt and the eternal punishment of mortal sins, some indebtedness to justice that demands temporal punishment can be cancelled through the ‘satisfaction’ (or later on in purgatory). **On the subject of purgatory, one man's work with intrinsic satisfactory qualities may actually be transferred to another in order to remove some (or all?) of the punishments of those believers in purgatory.** Those in purgatory are those who did not make satisfaction for their own venial sins before dying – thus having to be in purgatory. >Owing to the peculiar relation between and material identity of merit and satisfaction in the present economy of salvation, a twofold value must in general be distinguished in every good work: the meritorious and the satisfactory value. But each preserves its distinctive character, theoretically by the difference in concepts, and practically in this, that the value of merit as such, consisting in the increase of grace and of heavenly glory, is purely personal and is not applicable to others, **while the satisfactory value may be detached from the meriting agent and applied to others. The possibility of this transfer rests on the fact that the residual punishments for sin are in the nature of a debt, which may be legitimately paid to the creditor and thereby cancelled not only by the debtor himself but also by a friend of the debtor. This consideration is important for the proper understanding of the usefulness of suffrages for the souls in purgatory** (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. XXV, Decret. de purgat., in Denzinger, n. 983). (Catholic Encyclopedia – Merit ) Here is my question: 'I understand that a Catholic through meritorious works that have satisfactory power in them, can transfer those satisfactions as a kind of spiritual wealth to those in purgatory. However, can these ‘credits’ if I may use the word, be sent to others who are still alive as well?' More specifically: **'If I was Catholic and a dear relative I know commits venial sins and needs to do some satisfaction to avoid temporal punishment, can I do good meritorious/satisfactory works for them and thereby remove their temporal punishments for them? Or is the transfer of satisfaction only for those believers who are suffering temporal punishments in purgatory?**

Purgatory is most often dismissed as being nothing more than a Roman Catholic belief, but does Judaism have a form of purgatory? (ie a place where our remaining sins are purged) or to quote from the Catholic Catechism: > All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly > purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after > death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness > necessary to enter the joy of heaven. I know that Jews will not call it "purgatory" but I was wondering if this concept or a like-minded concept of purgatory existed within the Jewish faith

Catholics believe in the existence of Purgatory where one's soul gets purified before one is granted entry into the abode of God. So, we have November, the month dedicated to the prayer for the souls in Purgatory, as well as the special liturgical prayers for the dead . Now, one living person may go on praying for the soul of his/her beloved one who passed away , say before decades. In fact, we have no way of knowing whether the dead person's soul has attained heavenly abode, or not. For that matter, we do not even know the time, which is basically a human standard of truncating infinity, that one soul takes to purify itself in Purgatory. My question, therefore is: According to Catholic Church, how long should a person pray for the soul of his/her dear ones after the death of the latter ?

Point 6 in the Our Sunday Visitor Article ["9 truths about purgatory"](https://www.osvnews.com/2013/09/18/9-truths-about-purgatory/) is that souls in purgatory can intercede for us: > The souls in purgatory can’t do anything for themselves, but the Church has long believed that they can do something for us: They can pray for us, helping obtain for us the graces we need to follow Christ more perfectly. Two other questions related to their consciousness while in purgatory, given their status as [disembodied souls](https://cct.biola.edu/thomas-aquinas-human-nature-soul-afterlife/) : 1. Whether they can hear our petition for them to intercede for us, or whether the initiative to intercede for us can only come from them? 2. Whether they retain the memory of their loved ones on earth so they can intercede for us? **What is the Catholic teaching on this: from Scripture, Magisterium, and/or respected saints & theologians?**

Roman Catholics believe in purgatory, which is a state of purgation in which our soul goes through before entering into the kingdom of God, but are there any Early Church Fathers who believed in the concept of purgatory?