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Christianity

Q&A for committed Christians, experts in Christianity and those interested in learning more

Latest Questions

11 votes
3 answers
899 views
Has the prohibition against construction and veneration of statues and images been abrogated?
I'm Catholic, so I subscribe to the idea that constructing and venerating images and statues is permissible and encouraged as a matter of Church dogma. However I must admit that I find it hard to square this position with the explicit command NOT to construct and venerate statues found in scripture....
I'm Catholic, so I subscribe to the idea that constructing and venerating images and statues is permissible and encouraged as a matter of Church dogma. However I must admit that I find it hard to square this position with the explicit command NOT to construct and venerate statues found in scripture. > 4 “**You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them;** for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. I understand that Christ "fulfilled the law" and as such there are large portions of the law which no longer apply (for example the dietary laws, sacrifice laws, ritual cleanliness laws) while other parts of the law still apply (ie, the moral component of the law). Does the prohibition against constructing and venerating images fall under the "abrogated" category of the law, or the still in force "moral" component of the law? I've heard many arguments in defence of venerating images and statues, and I reckon they are all great arguments with much merit and insight, nevertheless I still get the feeling that they can all be easily shot down in one go with a quick quote of the proof text above. It's causing me some annoying cognitive dissonance which I would love to resolve... Stuff which is great but doesn't really answer my question: 1. Constructing images of angels, saints and Christ is permissible due to the incarnation. Christ is the perfect image of God/Christ is a "living icon" of God. Therefore by becoming man God demonstrated that it is ok to make images of Divine things. That's all well and good, but it just results in a contradiction with the above scripture quote, unless Christ abrogated that particular commandment. 2. When we pray to statues, we are not worshipping the statue, we are merely venerating what the statue represents: in other words "veneration given to an image travels to the prototype". Again, I follow the logic, but it still doesn't explain why we are allowed to construct these images in the first place, in light of the explicit prohibition in the 10 commandments. 3. Elsewhere in scripture God explicitly commands us to construct religious statues. Eg the bronze serpent, the Cherubim on the Ark of the covenant. Therefore the prohibition against statues can't be absolute. That's great, but these things seem to be very specific exceptions to a general rule, and the general rule forbids us from constructing and venerating images. 4. "Statues of Jesus and Mary are just like having a photograph of your spouse and Children in your wallet. They help you to remember them and keep them in mind". Again I follow the argument and agree in principle, however I still don't understand how we can construct these images in the first place considering we have been explicitly forbidden from doing so, even if the reason for constructing them is as benevolent as desiring a visual reminder of our Lord and Lady. The only way I can find to square this scripture quote with the Catholic/Orthodox use of images and statues is to assume that this particular commandment was abrogated by Christ after he fulfilled the law. Is that right?
TheIronKnuckle (2897 rep)
Jan 23, 2017, 05:56 AM • Last activity: Apr 24, 2025, 10:09 AM
12 votes
3 answers
1474 views
Are Lutherans comfortable with worshipping a consecrated host or do they consider it to be idolatry?
Lutherans believe in a real, physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist, similar to Catholics. However they also believe that the bread and wine remain as bread and wine even after consecration. Does this belief that the bread is still bread (despite also being God) prevent Lutherans from engaging...
Lutherans believe in a real, physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist, similar to Catholics. However they also believe that the bread and wine remain as bread and wine even after consecration. Does this belief that the bread is still bread (despite also being God) prevent Lutherans from engaging in eucharistic adoration/worship out of fear of idolatry? If not, can you please provide some examples of situations in which Lutherans engage in such adoration? Does it happen during the liturgy? Does it happen outside the liturgy?
user35774
Nov 5, 2017, 07:11 AM • Last activity: Mar 31, 2025, 12:42 PM
2 votes
4 answers
294 views
Is there such a thing as worshipping the wrong god?
I am an atheist and Ex-Hindu. I used to watch Stephen Colbert (American and Catholic) on comedy central before his current more famous tv show. In one of episodes, he was talking about Hinduism, and said "Hindus worship the wrong gods" (google search would back me up on this), which I found fascinat...
I am an atheist and Ex-Hindu. I used to watch Stephen Colbert (American and Catholic) on comedy central before his current more famous tv show. In one of episodes, he was talking about Hinduism, and said "Hindus worship the wrong gods" (google search would back me up on this), which I found fascinating -- This point of view about other religions. I admit that Hinduism seems to have a lot of issues, such as infamous cast system. I would like to know if this point of view was intended as a joke, or do people think that there is such a thing as "worshipping the wrong gods" I hope this is a right forum for this. Please edit my question, if necessary, to make the question suit the forum.
Sahil (129 rep)
Aug 11, 2024, 03:04 PM • Last activity: Aug 14, 2024, 11:35 PM
2 votes
2 answers
986 views
Do Biblical Unitarians consider worshiping Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit as God to be idolatry?
Many Christians believe that Jesus is God (it's just a matter of realizing how widespread trinitarianism is, for example). However, there are Christians that go one step further and act on this belief, treating Jesus for all practical purposes as God almighty. They pray to Jesus, they talk about Jes...
Many Christians believe that Jesus is God (it's just a matter of realizing how widespread trinitarianism is, for example). However, there are Christians that go one step further and act on this belief, treating Jesus for all practical purposes as God almighty. They pray to Jesus, they talk about Jesus all the time, and they even worship Him as God (for some good illustrative examples, please see [this](https://youtu.be/Z5a-hW9AJQI?t=159) and [this](https://youtu.be/QsYyuK1w3q0)) . Likewise, there are Christians who do pretty much the same with the Holy Spirit. A very good example is Benny Hinn's best-selling book [Good Morning, Holy Spirit](https://www.amazon.com/Good-Morning-Holy-Spirit-Benny/dp/0785261265) , which has been read and cherished by thousands, if not millions of Christians around the world. In this [video clip](https://youtu.be/wJ-urZd2x2k) you can see Benny Hinn leading a whole stadium to worship the Holy Spirit. **Question**: According to Biblical Unitarians: Does worshiping either Jesus or the Holy Spirit as God entail committing the sin of idolatry? When Christians worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit as God, are they sinning? If the answer is yes, then what happens to those Christians who have systematically committed this sin throughout their lives and die never repenting? Will they go to Hell as unrepentant idolaters, or does the answer depend on other conditions? _____________________ Answering to the comments: why would idolaters go to Hell? 1 Cor 6:9: *Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral **nor idolaters** nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men*
user50422
Mar 16, 2021, 12:27 AM • Last activity: Jul 22, 2024, 04:42 AM
1 votes
1 answers
214 views
Arguments for and against images of God
I am orthodox christian and on my walls I have icons of Jesus and Saints. But theese days I thought of the stature Christ the Redeemer from Brazil, Rio de Janeiro and I remembered some words from a book about prophet Elijah. Those aren't the words of Elijah from the Bible, but they refer to the mini...
I am orthodox christian and on my walls I have icons of Jesus and Saints. But theese days I thought of the stature Christ the Redeemer from Brazil, Rio de Janeiro and I remembered some words from a book about prophet Elijah. Those aren't the words of Elijah from the Bible, but they refer to the ministry of Elijah: "They(Phoenicians and Corrupted Israelits) take a stone and chisel it in the form of a god, but at the end of the day it is just a rock. It has a mouth, but doesn't speak, it has eyes, but can't see. Those are the idols they prefer over the invisible allmightly God". This is not the exact quote from that book, because I read it in my language and I tried to translate the quote. Now I accept answers from both traditional and reformed christians who accept/deny icons and statues. My question is if you think that Christ the Reedemer is an idol, a stone with face as described by Elijah(in the book I read, not in the Bible) what are your arguments, or if you believe statues and icons aren't idols and are an accepted form of worshipping God and what are your arguments.
MikeyJY (393 rep)
Aug 28, 2023, 11:10 AM • Last activity: Aug 28, 2023, 12:45 PM
3 votes
3 answers
149 views
How do Unitarians understand 1 Corinthians 1:2?
> 1 Corinthians 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" So, if Paul teach to call the name of Jesus Christ, how do Unitaria...
> 1 Corinthians 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" So, if Paul teach to call the name of Jesus Christ, how do Unitarians understand this verse, while only praying and calling upon the father?
Biblical Monotheist (69 rep)
Jul 12, 2023, 11:23 AM • Last activity: Jul 12, 2023, 10:41 PM
6 votes
3 answers
1540 views
How does Christianity define idolatry?
How does Christianity define idolatry which is prohibited in the 2nd of the ten commandments? Is there any general consensus among the different branches or are there different opinions? What are the earliest positions/opinions of Christianity on this subject?
How does Christianity define idolatry which is prohibited in the 2nd of the ten commandments? Is there any general consensus among the different branches or are there different opinions? What are the earliest positions/opinions of Christianity on this subject?
Gulshan (933 rep)
May 7, 2013, 05:26 PM • Last activity: May 21, 2023, 12:03 PM
4 votes
2 answers
367 views
Whom do Jehovah's Witnesses serve?
In a statement urging Israel to abandon idolatry and return to the Lord (Jehovah) Samuel says: > And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return > unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and > Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto th...
In a statement urging Israel to abandon idolatry and return to the Lord (Jehovah) Samuel says: > And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return > unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and > Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the LORD, and > serve him only: and he will deliver you out of the hand of the > Philistines. - 1 Samuel 7:3 This theme of serving God only as illustrated by forgoing the service of idols or false prophets and returning to the service of Jehovah God is oft repeated in Scripture: > Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer > of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love > the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall > walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, > and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. - > Deuteronomy 13:3-4 > Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: > and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of > the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. And if it seem evil > unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; > whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side > of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but > as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. - Joshua 24:14-15   This theme is picked up by Jesus in responding to the temptations of Satan in the desert and recorded almost identically in both Matthew and Luke: > And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt > fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, > Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him > only shalt thou serve. - Matthew 4:9-10 > If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. And Jesus > answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is > written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou > serve. - Luke 4:7-8 It is interesting to note how, in responding to the temptation to worship Satan, Jesus links worship and service of God together. To worship an idol is to serve that idol and to serve a false God is to worship that God. Jesus categorically declares (and also echoes all of God's revelation to us) that only God, Jehovah God, the Lord Almighty should be worshiped and served. > Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not > with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing > God: And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not > unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the > inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. - Colossians 3:22-24 And in another place, regardless of what is meant by the strange Chaldean word mammon, Jesus says that two different masters (one God and one non-God) cannot both be served: > No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and > love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the > other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. - Matthew 6:24 My question, therefore is, given Jesus exhortation to serve the Lord thy God only and the apostle Paul's reminder that it is the Lord Christ whom Christians serve: Whom do Jehovah's Witnesses serve?
Mike Borden (24105 rep)
Jan 26, 2023, 02:13 PM • Last activity: Apr 29, 2023, 12:52 PM
4 votes
1 answers
128 views
Whom do Biblical Unitarians serve?
In a statement urging Israel to abandon idolatry and return to the Lord (Jehovah) Samuel says: > And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the LO...
In a statement urging Israel to abandon idolatry and return to the Lord (Jehovah) Samuel says: > And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the LORD, and serve him only: and he will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines. - 1 Samuel 7:3 This theme of serving God only as illustrated by forgoing the service of idols or false prophets and returning to the service of Jehovah God is oft repeated in Scripture: > Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. - Deuteronomy 13:3-4 > Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. - Joshua 24:14-15  This theme is picked up by Jesus in responding to the temptations of Satan in the desert and recorded almost identically in both Matthew and Luke: > And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. - Matthew 4:9-10 > If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. - Luke 4:7-8 It is interesting to note how, in responding to the temptation to worship Satan, Jesus links worship and service of God together. To worship an idol is to serve that idol and to serve a false God is to worship that God. Jesus categorically declares (and also echoes all of God's revelation to us) that only God, Jehovah God, the Lord Almighty should be worshiped and served. > Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. - Colossians 3:22-24 And in another place, regardless of what is meant by the strange Chaldean word mammon, Jesus says that two different masters (one God and one non-God) cannot both be served: > No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. - Matthew 6:24 My question, therefore is, given Jesus exhortation to serve the Lord thy God only and the apostle Paul's reminder that it is the Lord Christ whom Christians serve: Whom do Biblical Unitarians serve?
Mike Borden (24105 rep)
Jan 26, 2023, 02:08 PM • Last activity: Jan 26, 2023, 09:38 PM
16 votes
4 answers
5981 views
What is the Catholic position on Exodus 20:4?
This weekend my son and I participated in our Scouting council's annual Ten Commandments hike in which we walked to 10 different churches and heard a short talk on each of the 10 commandments from Exodus 20. The lone Catholic church on our route (churches were largely represented based on proximity,...
This weekend my son and I participated in our Scouting council's annual Ten Commandments hike in which we walked to 10 different churches and heard a short talk on each of the 10 commandments from Exodus 20. The lone Catholic church on our route (churches were largely represented based on proximity, not theology) was assigned the following passage: > You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth.—Exodus 20:4 (NJB ) (My very first problem in researching this question is that, while this was labeled the second commandment by the organizer of the hike, it's the second half of the first according to Catholic tradition .) It seems we had some bad luck since the priest who was representing the Catholic position did not do a very good job of explaining idolatry to us. He mostly explained that the stained-glass windows (which were not unusual in the other churches we visited) and the statues (which were absolutely unique to that church) were not worshiped. Rather they were to be a reminder of the great saints of the past, their deeds, and that we could ask them to pray for us as we might ask a friend. ---------- The particular difficulty I'd like to resolve in my own mind is why Catholic churches use statues, which are carved, rather than flat images. The Orthodox church specifically uses icons in order to avoid idolatry. Stained glass, for better or worse, has become a nearly universally accepted church decoration. To me, either of these art forms go a long way to helping remind us (and especially visual learners) the deeds of the saints without risking they will be worshiped. So what is the Catholic reasoning for including carved statues in places of worship? **Update:** It occurs to me that if I'd asked the question a month or so ago, I would have been confronted with the statues many Protestants _do_ set up in our churches: the Nativity scene. My parent's church, where I was baptized, even includes a little ritual of having a child bring new figures to be added to the scene over the weeks of Advent. In my rush to judgement, I didn't stop to think if I had a plank in my own eye. Talk about hypocrisy! So, I really am not trying to "score points" on my Catholic brothers and sisters or further the cause of the Reformation. I want to understand.
Jon Ericson (9766 rep)
Jan 30, 2012, 06:46 PM • Last activity: Jun 26, 2022, 02:42 PM
-1 votes
3 answers
1381 views
Where in the Bible does it show the Israelites worshiping gods on their way to the promised land?
I can't remember where I found such a passage, but it is there somewhere. It even names some of the gods. If I remembered their names, then I could do a search. I need this information for a recent archaeology finding. It may be in the Psalms or prophets. I am not talking about the golden calf Aaron...
I can't remember where I found such a passage, but it is there somewhere. It even names some of the gods. If I remembered their names, then I could do a search. I need this information for a recent archaeology finding. It may be in the Psalms or prophets. I am not talking about the golden calf Aaron made.
Steve (7726 rep)
May 5, 2022, 03:55 PM • Last activity: May 5, 2022, 05:45 PM
3 votes
3 answers
3359 views
Is it permissible for a Catholic to pray the Salat?
I'm thinking of visiting a mosque on Wednesday. I've done this before a couple of years ago and it was a very valuable experience. The last time I visited I joined in the Salat and thought it was a great way to pray. I've since wondered whether it is actually ok to pray the Salat. I don't think ther...
I'm thinking of visiting a mosque on Wednesday. I've done this before a couple of years ago and it was a very valuable experience. The last time I visited I joined in the Salat and thought it was a great way to pray. I've since wondered whether it is actually ok to pray the Salat. I don't think there is anything heretical about the movements; I find them quite beautiful and I believe that they are worshipping the true God. However I have reservations about the fact that the Salat is prayed towards the Kaabah in Mecca. If it was prayed towards a tabernacle, a Eucharistic host, liturgical east, or no particular direction at all then I wouldn't have any problems with it. But because it is prayed towards a stone box in Saudi Arabia I worry that the whole thing might be a form of idolatry. What is the Catholic view of this situation? Two main questions: 1. Is it permissible to pray the Salat while facing Mecca? 2. Is it permissible to pray the Salat while facing a Eucharistic host, a tabernacle, liturgical east, or nowhere in particular? Note that for the purposes of this question I'm considering Allah and Yahweh to be the same God, as per dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium and the CCC paragraph 841. Any answer which disagrees is out of scope and will be downvoted
TheIronKnuckle (2897 rep)
Feb 6, 2017, 11:34 AM • Last activity: Nov 23, 2021, 04:07 PM
2 votes
3 answers
11082 views
How do Catholics answer the question of idol worship within the faith?
I'm in no way trying to be disrespectful or anything like that and please do not take it as such. I would like to know how Catholics reconcile the fact that the Bible states: 4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the ea...
I'm in no way trying to be disrespectful or anything like that and please do not take it as such. I would like to know how Catholics reconcile the fact that the Bible states: 4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; -- Exodus 20:4-5 If you walk into any Catholic Church, one sees not only statues of Christ, but also of Mary and several saints. Catholics then go up to these statues, kneel, and start praying. They also carry around necklaces with these saints and put up shrines to these saints in their homes. How is this not in direct violation with the commandments? In similar post on this form, the person answering that question said that these things are not idols, but instead are sacramental, but to me, it still looks like idol worship under a different name.
ToMakPo (139 rep)
Dec 11, 2017, 06:05 PM • Last activity: Oct 24, 2021, 02:39 PM
7 votes
4 answers
10439 views
According to the Roman Catholic Church, is halal meat being offered up to idols?
> For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye we...
> For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well. (Acts 15:28–29, ASV) > > No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. (1 Corinthians 10:20, NIV) In some nations there are Muslims working in the slaughterhouses blessing the meat so it becomes halal meat, so that Muslims can eat it when it is sold in the stores. For many this is not okay. What does the Roman Catholic Church say about this? Is this meat being offered up to idols?
Aigle (832 rep)
Nov 17, 2016, 04:35 AM • Last activity: Jul 28, 2021, 04:28 AM
4 votes
1 answers
1460 views
What is the difference between obeisance and worship?
After reading the answers to [this question](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/81396/how-do-deniers-of-jesus-divinity-explain-that-the-angel-at-revelation-229-did), I realized that many do not necessarily see it as idolatry if someone prostrates before someone else (e.g. Jesus), as lo...
After reading the answers to [this question](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/81396/how-do-deniers-of-jesus-divinity-explain-that-the-angel-at-revelation-229-did) , I realized that many do not necessarily see it as idolatry if someone prostrates before someone else (e.g. Jesus), as long as it is done to pay obeisance rather than as an act of worship. However, from an external observer's point of view, doing obeisance and worshipping are indistinguishable acts. In both there is a person in prostration, saying nice things to someone else. This must imply that if there is any difference, it is not found in the physical act itself, but in the attitude of the heart. **Question**: what is the difference between obeisance and worship? In particular, I'm interested in understanding what aspects of obeisance make it different from worship so as to not be considered idolatry when targeted to someone other than God.
user50422
Mar 22, 2021, 02:08 PM • Last activity: Mar 25, 2021, 12:43 AM
-2 votes
1 answers
81 views
Is belief or faith the same as idolatry?
So clearly there are a ton of biblical texts, the most famous being the second commandment against Idols. So given what we know about the nature of our brains today, I have a serious question: Is belief in God an idol carved out of neurons in between your ears? John Calvin has a famous definition of...
So clearly there are a ton of biblical texts, the most famous being the second commandment against Idols. So given what we know about the nature of our brains today, I have a serious question: Is belief in God an idol carved out of neurons in between your ears? John Calvin has a famous definition of faith. It starts off: >Faith is ultimately a firm and certain knowledge.. If we have a "firm and certain" belief in God, this constitutes a series of connection in our brain and cannot possibly capture the totality of the infinite divine mystery. If we carve out boundaries between what is and is not God, are we essentially carving out an idol in our brain? Is it hubris to think that we can find certainty on such a topic? I frequently think of Psalm 139:17-18 >How weighty to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! I try to count them—they are more than the sand; I come to the end—I am still with you. (interesting side, that "you" at the end is a feminine second person pronoun in the Hebrew ... pointing at God while in the previous verse it is masculine . I often think if these kind of moves in the text are the author trying to break your conception of God by switching up the gender used to refer to God). So if any belief we can form and articulate is an idol crafted in neurons between our ears, then isn't it appropriate to always refrain from maintaining or expressing belief in God? I mean, never allowing yourself to believe. This is not a call to anti-theism or anti-christian atheism. This does not mean, to me, to stop being Christian, but to transform what that means from something based in idolatrous belief. Should we stop "worshiping God" (which is always our conception of God)? Since our bible translations ignore the tetragrammaton, we miss out on the action of non-idolatry that Jewish readers achieve when they say "adonai" (Lord) whenever reading the name of God. By just replacing this with LORD in all our translations, we miss the ACT of non-formation of the concept. It seems to me that we have a ton of denominations running around with their own set of beliefs about God that constitute an array of idols. It seems that the statement "God exists" is somehow broken. Isn't God the source for existence? But that statement seems broken too... Isn't God the source of the concept of source? God is not the source. God does not exist. But this in no way refutes Gods. Isn't God the basis in which refutations can occur? Or is God just some thing within and defined by all these concepts? If so, then doesn't source/exist/refute all pre-exist or co-exist with God? If God is founded upon these concepts, then what are those things founded upon? I'm getting that feeling about the grains of sand from Psalm 139. There is something righteously Christian in non-belief as I see it. I know this could seem inflammatory, but I think this is a very important question and I'd like to work through some serious thoughts on it. I hope I have made clear my care for the topic and that responses will be framed in that care.
Gus L. (99 rep)
May 24, 2020, 12:57 PM • Last activity: May 24, 2020, 01:45 PM
8 votes
6 answers
3437 views
Commandment about idols and idolatry in OT
God continually tells people throughout the Hebrew Bible to not turn to idolatry. Exodus 20:4: >“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Does this mean that they sh...
God continually tells people throughout the Hebrew Bible to not turn to idolatry. Exodus 20:4: >“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Does this mean that they should not try to understand what God "looks" like by trying to recreate an image of Him (we are finite minds, God is an infinite mind), or that they should not make such images because that would lead them to venerate nature gods? Because the Israelites do make carved images of something that is "in heaven above," namely angels (cherubim): God tells Moses to place cherubim on the Ark. So then the making of images mentioned in Exodus 20:4 (and other laws concerning idolatry) does not pertain to, for example, making an image of Jesus or making images of various Saints, because those figures are, (in the Christian sense), a continuation of the OT, and thus they are beings created "in the image of God"? What is actually meant by all this? To not make images of various things for worship because they were not created "in the image of God"? (God is above, beyond, and outside of nature, and equating God to nature images by creating what is "in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath" is offensive to God?) Because, once again, didn't God tell Moses to place Cherubim on the Ark?
Emi Matro (265 rep)
Sep 24, 2013, 06:42 PM • Last activity: May 3, 2020, 04:31 AM
6 votes
5 answers
531 views
Does God will the diversity of religion?
According to this [article][1]: Pope Francis signed a document stating: > The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and > language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created > human beings, The article says: > theologian says it must be read in the proper context...
According to this article : Pope Francis signed a document stating: > The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and > language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created > human beings, The article says: > theologian says it must be read in the proper context The context is: > Catholics, Muslims and all who believe in God must work together to > build a culture of love, peace and human fraternity My question is how does the Catholic Church understand it within the context of the first commandment? Is this the teaching of the Catholic Church that diversity of religion is the will of God? > I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out > of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You > shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of > anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or > that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them > or serve them.3 It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God > and him only shall you serve."4 Catechism
Grasper (5573 rep)
Feb 6, 2019, 05:21 PM • Last activity: Oct 1, 2019, 01:00 PM
2 votes
0 answers
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Does preaching a message of serving strange gods to the Jews mean preaching a message that was opposite to Torah? If so, who preached such a message?
It has been suggested, in a thread called ["Resurrection and Deuteronomy 13"](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/72367/), that Jesus preached a message teaching people to follow unknown gods, to treat Christ as God, to practice idolatry, and therefore He was a false prophet, based on:...
It has been suggested, in a thread called ["Resurrection and Deuteronomy 13"](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/72367/) , that Jesus preached a message teaching people to follow unknown gods, to treat Christ as God, to practice idolatry, and therefore He was a false prophet, based on: >Deuteronomy 13:1(NASB)“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, **‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’** 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4“You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. **5“But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God** who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you. Paul calls greed as idolatry: >Colossians 3:5 (NASB)Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. There seems to be confusion about what idolatry, "serving strange gods", (whom you have not known) is. Images of worshiping images or statues come to mind, when idolatry is mentioned. These are mere acts of idolatry, not comprehensive and coherent explanations or descriptions of the phenomena. If we go by Paul's view, idolatry happens even when no worshiping of images or statues takes place. In order to understand what is involved in idolatry, let's identify the results desired, trace the steps taken to achieve those results and describe the outcome, what someone observes has happened. Most thinkers categorise the results desired as falling under one of the following labels: need for money, sex or power. A more coherent labeling would be: resources, favor or control. People strive for food and shelter, and when they have filled their stomachs, start thinking about satisfying their desire for acceptance, and when that is satisfied as well, they start thinking about how they can manipulate situations, in order to continue to be comfortable. So the intent is to acquire, and the steps taken to achieve that result starts with acquiring acts. Working, stealing, manoeuvring, so as to ensure resources reach the acquirer. Finally, after using all natural means to achieve the goal, some may even believe supernatural help can be reached out for, and act on that belief. Through time, people have decided not to leave out supernatural means to acquire, and systems and tools have been discovered that show what those means were. Systems of rituals and festivals, and various paraphernalia, like images and altars, were set up to gods of harvest or profit, if the acquirer wanted to gather resources, or to gods of fertility and love, if the acquirer was looking for favour from a target of their desires. And we know that environments serving gods of war and power were also created, to take care of all other eventualities. To Paul, the desire to acquire, greed, was all that was necessary to label a situation as idolatry. The use of rituals and images were just actions taken as insurance: if there were spiritual forces that helped the acquiring, the steps taken were supposed to take care of their existence and requirements. The steps were arbitrary and could be improved upon. If sacrificing a goat didn't work, the value was raised by sacrificing a human. If one victim failed, you could increase the number. The sky was the limit. Jesus described idolatry as serving mammon, living selfishly. The opposite was serving God, who being righteous, desired selflessness, and was Himself a selfless being, not withholding even life, the Lamb being slain, from the foundation of the world. Theologians recognise the God of the Torah as kenotic, self giving. We know that when someone preached a message of serving strange gods to the Jews, he was preaching a message that was opposite to Torah, and the fruit they bore, the proselytes they produced, were twice the sons of hell as they themselves (Matthew 23:14, 15). Who preached such a message, of following strange gods, to the Jews? 1. Old Testament Prophets 2. John the Baptist 3. Christ See Matthew 21:34 and Leviticus 19:18, 34 for help.
Seeker (277 rep)
Sep 11, 2019, 07:15 PM • Last activity: Sep 13, 2019, 06:55 PM
0 votes
1 answers
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What would be a divine image of a form that is in the water below the earth?
> And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Yahweh, your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves. There shall be for you no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth bel...
> And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Yahweh, your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves. There shall be for you no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth. You will not bow down to them, and you will not serve them, because I am Yahweh your God, a jealous God, punishing the guilt of the parents on the children on the third and on the fourth generations of those hating me, and showing loyal love to thousands of generations of those loving me and of those keeping my commandments. " > > Exodus 20:1-6 - LEB The famous commandment against idolatry. I've searched and I see that the commandment against picturing forms above the heavens is directed at stopping the worship of other gods, and the one against picturing forms in the earth below would be directed at stopping worshiping the death. What about the "forms that are in the water below the earth"? At first, Leviathan came to my mind, but that sea monster was in the seas, not in the water below the earth. Do we know of any tradition, either Israelite or of one of their neighbor nations, that had inhabitants in the water below the earth?
La Oveja Descarriada (151 rep)
Aug 1, 2019, 08:49 PM • Last activity: Aug 2, 2019, 02:36 PM
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