If a Trinitarian says that Jesus is both God and man, that is 100% God and 100% man, doesn't that necessarily mean that Jesus is both 100% uncreated and 100% created, since being uncreated is a property of someone who is 100% God and being created is a property of someone who is 100% man. I ask this unironically in consideration of verses like Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14 that can seem to describe Jesus as the beginning of God's creation. If indeed such a meaning was not just apparent but truly intended by the authors, isn't the Trinitarian belief already robust enough that it could accommodate such a scriptural pronouncement? Clarification: This question isn't whether or not Col 1:15 teaches that Jesus is apart of God's creation, but whether the Trinitarian belief already accommodates that, to the extent he is human, he already is created.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's only direct creation, and that it was Jesus who created all other things: > Since all created things had a beginning, there was a time when God was alone. Countless ages ago, however, God became a Creator. Who was his first creation? The last book of the Bible identifies Jesus as “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Revelation 3:14) Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation.” That is so “because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible.” (Colossians 1:15, 16) **Yes, Jesus was the only one directly created by God himself.** ([Who Is Jesus Christ? on wol.jw.org](https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005681)) We see this most clearly in the Jehovah's Witnesses translation of Colossians 1:15-16: > Colossians 1:15-16 (NWT) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. **All other things have been created through him and for him.** But Isaiah 44:24 says that it was Jehovah who created all things by himself: note the last line of Isaiah 44:24 which says that no one else was with Jehovah, probably speaking primarily about humans, but also angels and other spiritual beings, which would seem to preclude God co-creating with Jesus. > Isaiah 44:24 (NWT): This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, Who formed you since you were in the womb: “**I am Jehovah, who made everything.** I stretched out the heavens **by myself**, And I spread out the earth. **Who was with me?** How do the Jehovah's Witnesses reconcile Isaiah 44:24 with their belief that Jesus is the only direct creation of God and it was Jesus who created all other things? Question based on various revisions of [this now deleted question by Mr. Bond](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/75286/6071) .

I am convinced that the scriptures teach of a God who is completely sovereign in salvation. I am a monergist. I can cite several passages that make me think this way. I think if you look at some of my answers on this SE, you'll see that I'm a Calvinist. However, this does not mean that I'm a blind Calvinist. I arrived where I did by many years of study and internal deliberation. I am having another internal deliberation at this point. If we examine passages like the first half of Ephesians 2, we see that it was our nature to sin, and that we had the spirit of Satan working within us. In the same place, Paul refers to us as being dead in our sins. By all accounts, it looks to me like plain support of a Reformed interpretation of the doctrine of regeneration. In the first two chapters, we see plainly that we have been unified with Christ: he in our death, and us in His life. Because of this unity we have with Christ, God made us to be alive as He made His Son to be alive (and now, being united with Christ, we are sons and co-heirs with Christ). This all paints a beautiful monergistic picture. However... In the course of my studies this past weekend, preparing for a Bible study that I lead, I happened upon this verse: > In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 ESV) I get it most of this. Most of it still even paints a monergistic picture, with the phrase "circumcision made without hands," and the whole idea of being "raised" from the dead (the imagery being that it doesn't really involve an act of man's will that he should become alive while he is already dead). But I have a problem with the phrase "raised with him through faith." I see a logical contradiction that I need help working through (and a non-Calvinistic perspective on the passage does not solve the problem). Dead men cannot have faith (again, read Ephesians 2). We need to be made alive. However, this passage cites that we are raised _through faith_. What should I make of this contradiction? I can think of two options: 1. The reformed interpretation of regeneration is wrong. Men have the capacity to believe in God before they are regenerate (Wesley's idea of Prevenient Grace would therefore be inapplicable). This simply cannot be. Again, those with faith were once under Satan's influence. A house divided against itself cannot stand; we cannot serve two masters. There was nothing in us to make us want to believe. 2. Faith must be inherent in regeneration. Not tied to it, but faith would be regenerating. This would mean that predestination would be unto faith, and I've read Reformed authors who would quite disagree with this. I hope I've made the problem clear. I would appreciate some insight. Edit: Please allow me to clarify, I welcome explanations from traditions other than Calvinistic/Reformed. However, I would like these to address the basic doctrinal problem I am discussing. Please see @Eric's comment and my answer to his comment to get an idea of what I mean regarding this.

Compare the wording of the NWT and the NKJV at Colossians 1:15-17 NKJV says >15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [a]principalities or [b]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. NWT says > 15  He is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn of all creation;16  because by means of him **all other** things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All **other things** have been created through him and for him. 17  Also, he is before **all other** things,and by means of him **all other** things were made to exist, How do Jehovah’s Witnesses explain the usage of the word “other” in these verses? And what support for bringing this word into the text is there among Greek language aficionados?

Colossians 3:22-25 (NIV) states: > 22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism. Atheists on a certain Internet forum used this as an argument that the Bible condones slavery. What is a Christian counterargument to this statement?

Colossians 2:9 -------------- > > HCSB For the entire fullness of **God’s > nature** dwells bodily in Christ, > > NASB: For in Him all the fullness of **Deity** > dwells in bodily form, **How did Arius interpret Colossians 2:9?** How did Arius view the Greek word Θεότητος ?

John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him (or without Him) NOTHING came into being that has come into being." Also Colossians 1:16-17, "For by Him all things were created, in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him." Verse 17, "And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." I would also include Hebrews 1:10 spoken by God the Father, "And, Thou, Lord in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands." The verses quoted are all encompassing and "ALL" things came into being by Him/Jesus Christ, and apart or without Him "NOTHING" came into being. So what are these "other" things that "a god" (NWT of John 1:1) the Jehovah Witnesses are referring to at Colossians 1:16? Why is the word "other" added to the verse?

>”Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,“ *‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬ ‭ESV‬‬* Is there a specific group Paul is mentioning here? I’m unaware of a Jewish group that “worshiped angels”.

What does Tertullian mean by the Son being a "portion of the Father's substance"? > "For the Father is the entire substance, **but the Son is a derivation > and portion of the whole**" ([*Against Praxeas*, Chapter 9](http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0317.htm)) . Tetullian seemed to contradict the Scriptures: > For **the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily in Christ**, > > Colossians 2:9 (HCSB) If not, what does he mean by the Son being a derivation and portion of the whole substance?

Arguing against the teaching that Jesus is a created being, some point out that calling him the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) does not mean the first created. The trinitarian will often say that had the scripture intended to say Jesus is the first created thing the word Protoktistos would have been used rather than prototokos. Then they state that the word Protoktistos is never used in connection with Jesus. My question is: Can you cite examples in the scriptures where the word Protoktistos is used? I would like to compare the places it is used with the places where prototokos is used.

Proverbs 8:22-23 (LXX) says > The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. > He established me before time in the beginning, before he made the > earth How can that be Jesus if Jesus was not made but eternally begotten. Secondly Colossians 1:19 (NKJV): > For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on > earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or > principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for > Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Proverbs 8:26-29 would seem to denote that it was the Father who created, but Proverbs 8:30 seems to say that wisdom participated along with the father in creation (I wanted confirmation on this.)

This question asks and answers the addition of the word "other" in the NWT of Colossians 1:15-16: > 15 He is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn of all creation;16 because by means of him all **other** things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All **other** things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all **other** things,and by means of him all **other** things were made to exist, The accepted answer appeals to examples where "other" is added to "all" in order to clarify what was intended even though it does not appear in the Greek text. However, the NWT translation of John 1:3 does not add in "other" for this same clarification: > All things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. Contextually, him is the Word/logos/Jesus and it is striking that, "other" having been so carefully added in to Colossians to make clarification that all other things were created through him (excepting himself), the same other is not added in here as well. John 1:3 appears to be removing Jesus from the category of things that came into existence since, according to JW teachings, Jesus **is** one thing that came into existence and the verse clearly states (without the clarifying addition of "other") that not one thing came into existence apart from him. So, either Jesus brought himself into existence or he was not brought into existence. 1) How do Jehovah's Witnesses reconcile John and Colossians and, 2) Should we expect to see a future revision to the NWT translation of John 1:3 so that it reads: > All **other** things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one **other** thing came into existence.

Colossians 1:15-20 is often cited by Trinitarians as evidence that Jesus is God, because they tend to believe it is describing Jesus as creating all thing and holding all things together in an unbracketed sense. Who can do that but God? Yet, the section begins with the phrase > "The Son is the image of the invisible God" Normally, an image of something is not that thing. If I say something is an image of Bob, I mean it isn't Bob. The Greek word here is εἰκὼν (eikōn), meaning > "Strong's 1504: An image, likeness, bust. From eiko; a likeness, i.e. > statue, profile, or representation, resemblance." Do Trinitarians here understand this passage as saying "The Son is the image of the Father," so 'God' here is meant only to refer to one person of the Trinity? Or do they understand 'image' in a different way from the normal sense? What is a standard exegesis of this line according to Trinitarianism?

My question arises from a preacher's Facebook post condemning the practice of being a "prayer squirrel" (i.e., getting distracted while praying). He offers the following as an example of what prayers by such a person might look like: > Dear God, heal brother James of ... i need a coffee, I wonder who will win the hockey game tonite ... God heal brother James of his heart condition, and Lord... sister Jennifer really could use a blessing from you because she ... I forgot to take out the roast for dinner ... the kids are late coming home from school ... bless sister Jennifer because she needs encouragement. Amen. In support of this being sinful, the preacher translates Colossians 4:2 thusly (emphasis added): > Devote yourselves to prayer **without distraction** as you pray Is this an accurate translation of Colossians 4:2? Does the verse prohibit being a "prayer squirrel"? While it certainly makes sense that we should be focused when praying, are we specifically commanded such by Colossians 4:2 or other verses, meaning that distraction while praying is sinful, or do verses such as Colossians 4:2 have a different application in mind?

There are some people who claim that Jesus is a created being, but this claim is nowhere confirmed, rather the Bible says: > Everything became through the Word, **and without the Word did not > become one that has become.** (John 1:3) > > **From him and through him and for him are all things**; to him be the > glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Romans 11:36) > > Colossians 1:15-16 (NIV): The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; **all things have been created through him and for him**. I mean, that's pretty obvious. So if the Bible says that everything was created through him, how is it possible that he is a created being? Did he create himself?

From this answer I gather that LDS teaches that all beings are eternal and that by eternal it is not meant existing timelessly beginning at some point but, rather, not actually having any starting point. Indeed the answer asserts that the first "stage" in the existence of every person (and also every God) is that of "intelligences". An intelligence then becomes a spirit being (the manner of this transformation is unrevealed) and a spirit being is embodied in flesh at mortal birth, lives on after mortal death, and has the opportunity to be exalted to Godhood. The "intelligence" is asserted to be uncreated and self-existent. This related question indicates that the LDS view of the Genesis account is that God did not create matter in the beginning but, rather, organized already existing matter. I have not ascertained if this pre-existing matter is self-existent. It is clear, however, that LDS teaches it was not created ... at least not by the God of Genesis. Given that LDS teaches that all beings are self-existent (not created) and that matter was not created (at least not by the God revealed in Scripture), how does LDS interpret Colossians 1:16 which appears to clearly state that there is not anything anywhere that the God of Genesis did not create? > For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him Colossians 1:16 

Colossians 2:16-17, 20-21 says, >16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. > >20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” The New King James Version. (1982). (Col 2:20–21). Nashville: Thomas Nelson. That entire portion of the end of Colossians 2 talks about the danger of legalism and seems to discourage keeping things such as the Sabbath (at least keeping them legalistically). How do Seventh-Day Adventists and other denominations that keep the Sabbath interpret this passage?

Jesus is called *the firstborn* multiple times. In Colossians 1:15-20 (ESV): > 15 He is the image of the invisible God, **the firstborn of all creation**. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, **the firstborn from the dead**, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. In Hebrews 1:6 (ESV): > 6 And again, **when he brings the firstborn into the world**, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.” And in Romans 8:29 (ESV): > 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of **his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn** among many brothers. As we can see, the concept of firstborn is used to describe Jesus multiple times and in different contexts, so it wouldn't surprise me if the word has a wide semantic range. However, for the purposes of this question, I want to focus on the specific meaning in the context of Colossians 1:15: *"He is the image of the invisible God, **the firstborn of all creation**"*. What is an overview of how different Christian denominations interpret Colossians 1:15? What is meant by Jesus being *the firstborn of all creation*, according to different branches of Christianity? Is this a controversial passage? Do most Christians agree on the meaning?

> Colossians 1:26-27: "the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations; but has now been manifested to His saints. To who God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." How can you fellowship with someone who is NOT with (or in) you, and how can he be with (or in) you if he is not God? Jeremiah 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds. The Apostle John at Revelation 2:23 excerpts the words from Jeremiah 17:10 and attributes them to the Lord Jesus Christ when He says, "I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give each one of you according to your deeds." John 14:23 says God the Father and Jesus Christ will make their ABODE with him." Romans 5:5 says of the Holy Spirit, "and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out WITHIN OUR HEARTS through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." So in summary, if Jesus Christ is not God how is it He can fellowship with billions of other peoples scattered throughout time and space?

note: All Scripture quoted is from the King James translation. I have noticed that Paul referred to Jesus as the firstborn numerous times: >Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. > >Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. > >Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: > >Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. > >Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, I am especially interested in the phrase "firstborn from the dead" from Colossians 1:18. Was Paul referring to being dead to sin or being dead physically and being resurrected to eternal life, Something even more elusive to me?