It is confusing to me that what what the goal of zazen is (and is not), as proposed by various people with more or less authority on the subject, varies so greatly. Some say no goal, and others identify various goals. Rationally speaking, no goal makes sense. It is a form of non-dualism. If there is a goal, then there is an attachment to becoming something which one is not. But no goal is also nonsense. If there is no goal, then there is no goal to end suffering. The Four Noble Truths become descriptive, and the Eightfold Path is unimportant. This is as far as my thinking has gotten. I conclude with some verifiable examples of what the goal of zazen is said to be. **remove wrong perceptions** > the practice of meditation, the practice of looking deeply, has the purpose of removing wrong perceptions from us
—[“What is Nirvana and How Does It End Suffering?” by Thích Nhất Hạnh at *MeditationPlex*](http://www.meditationplex.com/zen-meditation/thich-nhat-hanh-nirvana-suffering/#sthash.ymYgRbuO.dpuf) **see ourselves** > Zazen deliberately tries to remove all entertainment and distractions from our minds so we can see ourselves as we really are
—[The Laughing Teabowl Sangha](https://sites.google.com/a/wildblue.net/laughingteabowl/Home/zazen) **there is no goal** > There is no starting point nor goal, nothing to attain
–[*Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind* by Shunryu Suzuki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner 's_Mind) **grasp enlightenment** > the only way to grasp enlightenment is through a calm and settled mind
—[Zen Guide](http://www.zenguide.com/practice/zazen_guide.pdf) **engage with reality (not to make your life better)** > The real practice of Zen is to engage directly with reality, not to use it as a method to improve your health or make your life better
—[“Zazen Posture” by Josho Pat Phelan at *Chapel Hill Zen Center*](http://www.chzc.org/posture.htm) **not to learn** > Don’t think of practice in terms of “eventually”
—[“Zazen is not step-by-step learning meditation” by Harada Sekkei Roshi at *Buddhism Now*](http://buddhismnow.com/2014/02/19/zazen-not-step-by-step-harada-roshi/) **compassion** > the purpose of zazen is compassion
—[“Beyond Thinking: Dogen’s Teachings on Zazen” by Norman Fischer at *Upaya Zen Center*](http://www.upaya.org/2013/10/norman-fischer-10-05-2013-beyond-thinking-dogens-teachings-on-zazen-part-4/)

As I understand it, Dogen says that, at least for those new to seated meditation, there is no enlightenment outside seated meditation. Well, to me that if true that's awful! No speech, no writing, no solidarity, etc.? I think it's this that is the stumbling block along the buddha way, for me. Does it even have an answer?

As far as I am aware, in Zazen the hands are folded in a mudra, a larger emphasis is placed on holding the specific posture, the eyes are held open, and attention is placed underneath the navel. But other than this the basic instructions seem to remain the same: concentrate on your breath, and when other thoughts arise direct attention back to the breath. In Theravada Buddhism a large emphasis is placed on the *jhanas*. Is Zazen also supposed to lead to states of absorption? What are the differences between the practices?

I have been practicing two different meditations over the years, one is Anapanasati, i.e. mindfulness of breath as I learned from S.N.Goenka, and the other is Zazen or Shikantaza i.e. just sitting, doing nothing, as I learned at a Zen school. My trouble is, when I set to do breath awareness, then the mind gets triggered and I easily get lost in thoughts. It's difficult for me to be 'here and now' with the breath. On the other hand, with Shikantaza, my practice is really good. I can sit for longer periods without any thought in silence. But the problem is I did not read anywhere if we can attain to Jhanas or any other state, doing Shikantaza. As against this, I have read about gradual progression towards Jhana doing the Anapanasati. So, I want to know, if Jhana is possible through Shikantaza and if not, is there any other type of progression?

As we know, in soto-shu we don't count nor observe the breath during zazen. I would like people who have a long experience with zazen meditation to explain if they consider that counting and observing the breath was helpful to progress in their meditation practice or not. Should a beginner start with counting breathing rather then go straight into shikantaza practice ?

Is it OK to use zazen for the purposes one would use metta meditation? Because I don't want to do any meditation except zazen.

I have read about 'Jhana' in Ajahn Brahm's book, '**Mindfulness, bliss and beyond**'. It looks like, from his teaching of Theravada Buddhism, 'Jhana' is a pre-requisite to attain 'Nirvana'. I want to ask, is there anything similar to 'Jhana' in Zen. From my readings it does not seem it's 'Satori'.

Is shikantaza meant to spontaneously relax you, unlike ch'an meditation? I've never taken classes in the former, but the latter seems to *teach* you to relax -- and then follow the breath spontaneously. Is this about right? To stay alert, in zazen, I focus on the tip of my nose, as and when I need to. If my thoughts bother me, I mentally turn toward them (both literally and metaphorically). I believe that is still zazen? I don't have any other questions about how to meditate, anymore; though I'm unsure what enlightenment or jhana is.

Currently I practise Zazen as I have read from books i.e 'Just sitting doing nothing'. I keep an erect sitting posture, back straight and eyes closed. This hasen't led me anywhere. So I am asking the official way to practise Zazen and Zen in general so as to lead one to Stori.

This may be a crazy question. But just out of curiosity when we do law of attraction method they say that we can attract money, success or something. Can we attract enlightenment like that??? So in law of attraction we visualize something that we have already got it. Let's say if I wanna be an actor, I visualize myself as an actor getting an award. And the whole universe will work in a way to make me as an actor. So similarly when I can visualize I have already got enlightenment, do I attain enlightenment. Sorry if I have mistakes in my question. But just thinking out of the box with this concept.

In Zen the key practice is sitting meditation (Zazen or 座禅). Is monks' experience in Zazen like the LSD effect (i.e. "ego is dead")? Does Zazen give at least approximately some experience similar to LSD -- perhaps including, for example, "tears, laughter, and then everything becoming clear"? Are there any scientific experiments, books, interviews with scientists about this? I'm looking for, but can't find, any scientific information about it.

This might seem a silly question, but unfortunately I am extremely oversensitive to human noises. I don't mind meditation with the noise of traffic, or a thunderstorm, or the monotonous drone of a ventilator. But when I am trying to do za-zen in a dojo with other people and I hear other people breathing loudly through their noses, it drives me nuts and puts me in an extremely bad mood. Basically, I stop the meditation and just start thinking about my work or something, to stop noticing the noise. I know this is wrong, and somehow I should make the noise, the other person's breathing and my own irritation part of the meditation: observe my irritation and meanwhile keep getting back to my own respiration, but I wonder whether there is some advice, some trick, to make this easier. I know I am my own biggest enemy here, but it's a problem that keeps on occurring and it's hard for me to get out of this trap.

I would like to know how Tendai or indeed Tiantai, views its use of zazen or zen. I would provisionally assume it serves a different role than it does or is in Soto and Rinzai and contemporary Chan.

I feel concern for others, but like my efforts in anything are wasted. Is there any practice I could engage in, to remedy the latter? I've been taught meditation in a handful of contexts. What about sort of focusing on or keeping that feeling of nothing mattering, during zazen? Caveat: I won't believe in other lives, only karma.

What is the "ease" of the "dharma gate of ease and joy"? Can an unelightened person achieve it outside seated meditation? Ought I ***imagine*** everything is difficult, or everything is easy? How can we be effortful in our everyday lay tasks?

In Soto-Zen Buddhism there is a sitting meditation known as Shikantaza which is the art of just-sitting. My question, what techniques are given to Soto-Zen practitioners to prevent the mind from being "sticky" or "stuck" during Shikantaza. For example, 1. I have been told by some practitioners that they would call sight, sound, taste, touch, smell and mind as objects. By referring to the six sense organs as objects they disconnect themselves from the object to prevent the formation of subject. Although it sounds interesting that doesn't sound like, at least by what I've read, as Shikantaza. 2. Another practitioner told me they simply listened to silence or emptiness. This reminded me of Eckhart Tolle's meditation instructions especially given in his book "Stillness Speaks". The problem I find through this method is the practitioner is focusing on an object, as Lao tzu mentioned in his book the "Tao Te Ching"; the form which is formless. Also, Dogen encouraged the sitter to just sit with no attention to a single object. Concentration on emptiness is neglecting sitting and the original face. 3. Finally, another practitioner explained he would simply try to keep his attention centered as if he were sitting inside of a dome. That is, trying to be aware of the world and his thoughts while building a kind of cushion between himself and object. Almost but not exactly a combination of the first two. Therefore, what are the steps Soto-Zen practitioners are encouraged to take in order to practice Shikantaza. To clarify, I'm not interested in physical postures such as sitting, hand positions, the position of the tongue, etc... but rather, what is the sitter doing with his/her mind and the steps they are taking to separate subject from object.

Dogen's zazengi says > Zazen is the dharma gate of great ease and joy What does the term "joy" mean here? And if I can feel something like that without zazen, should I cultivate it? As well as learning meditation, I mean.

His, Dogen's, Fukanzazengi, says > Think of not-thinking. How do you think of not-thinking? Be before > thinking. These are the basics of zazen. I haven't, I think, been formally taught zazen. But how does this sound, as a paraphrase: - think of thinking which is no longer thought Because, taken literally, I feel that it is a very good way of looking at our relationship to history, when we cannot do anything about it.

I've never had a problem with sleepiness, and I only get impatient when sitting on my own. But oh *that leg pain is something else*. Does anyone have any advice from a Zen perspective - not necessarily how to reduce the pain, but how to not simply hate meditation because of it (at least the half lotus position, and at least when in that position).

I would like to attend a 3 months "rains retreat" (Kyol-Che), in a Zen (Seon) temple in South Korea. I would have to go to a temple where they give instructions in English, though. 'Mu Sang Sa' Temple (which I hope is way cheaper for monks) seems to organize two 3 months retreat a year. Do you know other places?