Can a divine being claim to have made a very heavy sacrifice when he uses his creative power and makes another vessel / being / substitute creature that he gives away or gives up to be tortured on his behalf? **Is it Him who is suffering or the being he created?** When humans sacrifice a cow / sheep / goat, place the knife on its throat and cut it, is it the animal or the owner that feels the pain?

Trinitarians assert that Jesus is the Eternal Word of God. From John 1 they assert personified pronouns in order to claim this chapter supports this idea. This assertion of ambiguous Greek pronouns can be discussed and debated at length. However, in the context of this question, let us assume Jesus is actually the personified Eternal Word of God. Furthermore, let us assume every theoretical detail of the Trinity. I often ask Trinitarians why God(Jesus) has a God(the Father) and the response is that the human _part_ of Jesus _has a_ God, but the divine _part_ of him _does not_ have a God because he is God. The common Trinitarian belief is that Jesus began to have a God when he took on flesh. He currently still has his flesh (now glorified) and is still a man. This Jesus then, is now and forever fully man and _not only_ fully God Almighty as he was eternally with the Father. This God-man _has_ a God now and forever who he will serve into eternity as high priest. The Risen Son is not a high priest to himself. Heb 2 >16 For indeed he does not give aid to angels, but he does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things ***he had to be made like his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest*** in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered, being tempted, he is able to aid those who are tempted. Heb 7:20 > And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any > oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: > > “The LORD(YHWH) has sworn > and will not change his mind: > ***‘You are a priest forever.’***” Heb 8 >1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a **Minister** of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. > >3 For every high priest is **appointed to offer** both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now he has obtained a more excellent **ministry**, inasmuch as he is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Jesus was glorified and exalted beyond the angels... beyond every creature to ever exist. But this Eternal person, the *Logos*, seems to have been diminished in stature to that of a servant/minister of God (high priest) instead of his former status as fully God Almighty. **My questions**: 1. How do Trinitarians understand this change in stature and place of the *Logos* within the Kingdom of God? 2. How do Trinitarians make a case that his stature was not diminished, when formally he was not subordinate to anyone?

When Jesus spoke about his future suffering it did not seem to register properly. For example: >(Matthew 16:22) Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!” This raises the question: Did the Jews push the suffering of the servant Messiah (Isaiah 53) to the background of their mind, or was there no expectation that Messiah would suffer at all?

The modern Jewish interpretation of the so-called suffering servant song of Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is that it is a prophecy referring to the nation of Israel, not the Messiah. As such, it is sometimes suggested that Christians invented the idea that this is a Messianic prophecy. What evidence is there that (at least some) Jews saw the passage as having Messianic implications? Do such interpretation predates the advent of Christianity? When did the nation of Israel interpretation become common?

My observation of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is portrayed, worshiped and promoted in his state on the cross: suffering, crucified, having wounds. I don't see what sense this makes. This seems like a form of sadism. Why is he not portrayed healthy? Why aren't his good deeds before the last supper remembered instead?

It is often asserted that the Gospel of Mark distinctively presents Jesus as the Servant, even the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. What is it about the particular content of the gospel of Mark that gives rise to this assertion? What is the basis for this distinction?

Consider [Isaiah 53:4-6 (NIV)](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2053:4-6&version=NIV) , which is commonly interpreted as a prophecy that the Messiah would die for the sins of the world: > 4Surely he took up our pain
> and bore our suffering,
> yet we considered him punished by God,
> stricken by him, and afflicted.
> 5But he was pierced for our transgressions,
> he was crushed for our iniquities;
> the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
> and by his wounds we are healed.
> 6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
> each of us has turned to our own way;
> and the LORD has laid on him
> the iniquity of us all. It seems apparent that the majority of Jews at the time, did not interpret this passage (and others) to mean that Jesus was the Messiah, until after Christ died. This seems to be common with many (maybe most or all) Biblical prophecies: There is sufficient detail to identify once an event has occurred, but not sufficient detail to predict when a prophesied event will occur. So my question: **Did Isaiah understand his own prophecies, in the sense that we do today?** Would Isaiah, for instance, have known that the Messiah would die for the sins of the world? If Isaiah had met Christ before His death, would he have realized he was the Messiah? Or were Isaiah's own words enigmatic to him as they were to the rest of the world, prior to the fulfillment of the prophecies?