The only question is - "How can Pope Leo say all this and eventually still worship towards the East, having in mind the church fathers bellow - Is this not the same thing he rebukes that the church father write about?" From [Sermon XXVII](https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360327.htm) (c. 450 AD) of Pope Leo I (Leo the Great, c. 391-461 AD): > **V. The foolish practice of some who turn to the sun and bow to it is reprehensible** > > From such a system of teaching proceeds also the ungodly practice of certain foolish folk who worship the sun as it rises at the beginning of daylight from elevated positions: even some Christians think it is so proper to do this that, before entering the blessed Apostle Peter's basilica, which is dedicated to the One Living and true God, when they have mounted the steps which lead to the raised platform , they turn round and bow themselves towards the rising sun and with bent neck do homage to its brilliant orb. We are full of grief and vexation that this should happen, which is partly due to the fault of ignorance and partly to the spirit of heathenism: because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself, which is His creature, yet we must abstain even from the appearance of this observance: for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels? > > Leo the Great, Sermons, ed. by Thomas P. Halton, trans. by Jane Patricia Freeland and Agnes Josephine Conway, The Fathers of the Church (Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1996), XCIII, 113 (The apostle is saying similar thing - 2 Cor. 6:15) **What is the problem with this if Christians worship towards the East and do this every time when pray?** - turn themselves around towards the rising sun, and bow down to honor its shining disk...because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light Let's break down the above quote: > 1. The foolish practice of some who turn to the sun and bow to it is reprehensible > > 2. such a system of teaching proceeds also the ungodly practice of certain foolish folk who worship the sun as it rises > > 3. even some Christians think it is so proper to do this > > 4. We are full of grief and vexation that this should happen, which is partly due to the fault of ignorance and partly to the spirit of heathenism: > > 5. because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself, which is His creature, > > 6. yet we must abstain even from the appearance of this observance: > > 7. for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, > > 8. as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels? (The apostle is saying similar thing - 2 Cor. 6:15) Quote from *De architectura libri decem* (On Architecture, published as Ten Books on Architecture) by a Pagan (Marcus Vitruvius Pollio?) probably written between 30–20 BC: > ... so that those who approach with offerings and sacrifices will look toward the image within the temple beneath the eastern part of the heavens (*spectent ad partem caeli orientis*, i.e. look towards the eastern sky); and thus when they are raising their prayers, they will view both the temple and the rising heaven, while the images themselves will seem to be rising as well, to view the supplicant and sacrificers because it seems necessary that all altars of the gods face east. (*De architectura libri decem 4.5.1*) > > *Source*: [*Early Christian Prayer and Identity Formation*](https://gnosis.study/library/%D0%93%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81/+%20%D0%9D%D0%B5%20%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%20%D0%BE%20%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B5/ENG/Early%20Christian%20Prayer%20and%20Identity%20Formation.pdf) ed. by Hvalvik and Sandness (Mohr Siebeck, 2014) page 66-67 See also: - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/62632/why-do-many-old-churches-face-east - *Wikipedia* articles: [De architectura](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_architectura) , [Vitruvius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvius) - *Ten Books of Architecture* translated by Morris Hicky Morgan (1914): [scanned pdf copy](https://www.chenarch.com/images/arch-texts/0000-Vitruvius-50BC-Ten-Books-of-Architecture.pdf) - *Ten Books of Architecture* in original Latin: [*archive.org* online reader](https://archive.org/details/vitruviidearchit00vitr/page/202/mode/2up) I think that from this text and also looking at the ancient church buildings in Rome, we can see that the churches in Rome were not all facing West, something that is a common practice today. Now the most of the churches face West, so the people inside can worship towards the east. This is very strange to me. If some say that Pope Leo I prayed towards the east and bowed, would he say all this? It is ungodly to bow to the sun and honor the creator and honor the true light as some say, but it is pious practice if you are in the church and do the same thing? How should this be understood? Pope Leo I also says - "for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship" and the (*De architectura libri decem 4.5.1*) shows that the pagans worshiped towards the East? Another quote, from Origen: > ... Of the four directions, the North, South, East, and West, who would not at once admit that the East clearly indicates the duty of praying with the face turned towards it with the symbolic suggestion that the soul is looking upon the dawn of the true light? ... > > *Source*: [*Origen on Prayer*](https://www.ecatholic2000.com/fathers/origen.shtml) Chapter XX: Formalities of Prayer: Conclusion ::::::::::::::::::::::::UPDATE::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: **Elaboration on the question that in my opinion must be taken in consideration in order to answer the question:** We stand at prayer we face the East, where the rise of the heavens begins ...facing the light! As the symbol of the Holy Spirit, it loves the (radiant) East, that figure of Christ...while its body is turned toward a heavenly body...you turned to the east...to Christ...looks upon him directly...look always to the east, where is the rising Sun of justice... ...that the soul is looking upon the dawn of the true light...In correspondence with the manner of the sun's rising, prayers are made looking towards the sunrise in the east. Whence also the most ancient temples looked towards the west,(Pagan temples?) that people might be taught to turn to the east when facing the images....the East is the direction that must be assigned to His worship…...but few know.....the reasons for this, I think, are not easily discovered by anyone...But this tradition of the apostles is unwritten. @DJClayworth About - Answer 1: 1. You say - "because they give the impression of worshipping the sun and bring disfavour on Christians." (If we look at what the church fathers say, it will not help to prove this, but the opposite.) Pope Leo 1 mentions - The foolish practice of some who turn to the sun and bow to it is reprehensible… some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself. In reality if we look at Origen ((32).44) Prayer, Exhortation to Martyrdom), (Origen - Homilies on Leviticus), Tertullian (the (radiant) East, that figure of Christ Tertullian Adv. Val., c. iii), Clement (Strom. 7.7.43–46), Ambrose’ De Mysteriis, (Myst. 2.7), Augustine of Hippo, Augustine, Sermon on the Mount 2.5.18, John Damascene, Three Treatises on the Divine Images 2.16. We can see that what Pope Leo 1 rebukes seems to be very similar as what is mentioned by the earlier and later church fathers. Even Augustine says - "It is done so that the mind may be admonished to turn toward God while its body is turned toward a heavenly body. You say - "Leo is also talking about specifically bowing (an indication of worship) rather than Christians who pray facing a certain direction." When Christians worship / pray towards the East they bow - I recently learned that the word worship means bow down both in greek and hebrew I think. 1. Greek: proskuneó: To worship, to bow down, to prostrate oneself https://biblehub.com/greek/4352.htm https://biblehub.com/luke/4-8.htm .................................. 2. Hebrew - shachah: To bow down, to prostrate oneself, to worship. https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7812.htm So Christians worship towards the East, (bow down) when praying even physical bowing down is often made in prayer. Nr 2. You say - "2. For the denominations where churches face east, it is done for traditional reasons that are associated with facing Jerusalem, not with facing the rising sun." (We will look at the church father bellow) Where do you have this from, why Jerusalem? John 4:21? I hear this for first time. Today they say that Christ will come from East, but this is later interpretation of the worship towards the East, I have yet not found a single ancient church father mentioning this before John Damascus who is very late. You say - "not with facing the rising sun" - The church fathers connect the east with Christ the true light that they connect to the rising sun. (sun's rising, prayers are made looking towards the sunrise in the east.) (Clement of Alexandria, Strom. 7.7.43–46;) And the very strange part is - “Whence also the most ancient temples looked towards the west.” (These temples are most likely the pagan - God had only one temple and it did not look West, but East - entrance from East, praying towards the West - in the Old Testament while in the Temple in Jerusalem towards the Holy of Holies facing West) (Clement of Alexandria, Strom. 7.7.43–46;) Modern churches are not relevant because today everyone does what they want, many things have changed. I am looking only at the ancient churches and the ancient times before 9 c.AD. It seems that most Christians today are not like Christians in the past, America is relatively new. "This doesn't sound much like it is covert worship of the rising sun." - (below we will look at the church fathers). Nr. 3. I have heard about the subject of ad orientem vs versus populum. But this is different in my opinion, it is about the priest. My question is about the prayer, worship towards the east by the people as is commanded in "the apostolic constitutions". The private prayer and the prayer in the church. In this case if pope Leo 1 faced the people in Liturgy he may have prayed towards the East, but this is because the building is oriented this way, but it seems that many ancient churches in Rome have different directions, North, South, East, West if he was performing Liturgy in one of them and facing the people he may not have prayed towards the East besides the East entrance orientation. The apostolic constitutions say - (Sources say condemned as heretical Quinisext Council and Galician Decree, but John Damascus accepts it as canonical, does this make John Damascus heretic, according to the councils, but that is another question?) And first, indeed, let the building be long, with its head to the east, with its vestries on both sides at the east end; and so it will be like a ship… After this, let all rise up with one consent, and, looking towards the east, after the catechumens and the penitents are gone out, pray to God eastward, who ascended up to the heaven of heavens to the east; remembering also the ancient situation of paradise in the east, whence the first man, when he had yielded to the persuasion of the serpent, and disobeyed the command of God, was expelled. (The apostolic constitutions Chapter LVII) https://ldsfocuschrist2.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/apostolic-constitutions-william-whiston.pdf Nr. 4. You say - "4. There is no kind of uniform practice to pray facing the east.". (Probably not today, after the many reformations of the catholic church, but this is not the case for the orthodox church even today.) Today they are not so harsh as it was once, especially catholics changed a lot through the ages. "there is no rule or requirement to face east when praying" - actually if we look at the church fathers there is a rule, and if you reject this rule you are even under anathema according to the 7 ecumenical council - "If anyone rejects any written or unwritten tradition of the church, let him be anathema." https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum07.htm The worship towards the East is an unwritten tradition, John Damascus mentions this. "it would be ridiculous to ban praying to the east (given that there are a limited number of directions to pray in) just because a tiny number of people think it might be related to sun-worship." I have not met such people yet that claim such things. But what do you think about - to tell people to worship towards the east as the pagans did and if they do not do that (reject) they are under anathema. I find it a problem when they say - pray only to the East. Not against praying towards the East, the problem is praying only towards the East thinking that we are looking at the true light (Origen), the radiant East that figure of Christ (Tertullian) while we are looking at heavenly body (Augustine). As the pagans did. Even Jerome says - “the Lord, as the Lord Himself commanded through Moses (Deut. XII), that they should not worship God against the east in the manner of the Gentiles” although I am not exactly sure if Jereome also prayed towards the East. 1. Tertullian about the pagans - But you, many of you, also under pretence sometimes of worshipping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. (Tertullian, Apol. 16.11)(Tertullian, Ad nat. 1.13;) https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologeticus#:~:text=Apologeticus%2C%20his%20most%20famous%20apologetic,2nd%20centuries%20had%20been%20convicted . https://www.tertullian.org/works/ad_nationes.htm https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03061.htm 2.Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 220 AD) - (Probably church orientation - (how simple is the very home!— always in high and open places, and facing the light!)) "of our dove", as he terms them, are always in "high and open places, facing the light" (Tertullian Adv. Val., c. iii), the "house of our dove" (a metaphor for the church) Of our dove, however, how simple is the very home!— always in high and open places, and facing the light! As the symbol of the Holy Spirit, it loves the (radiant) East, that figure of Christ. Nothing causes truth a blush, except only being hidden, because no man will be ashamed to give ear thereto. (Tertullian Adv. Val., c. iii), https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0314.htm https://ccel.org/ccel/tertullian/against_valentinians/anf03.v.vi.i.html 3.(198 AD–c. 203 AD) Clement of Alexandria (c.150-215 AD)(Stromata written c. 198 AD–c. 203 AD) - considered gnostic by himself - And since the dawn is an image of the day of birth, and from that point the light which has shone forth at first from the darkness increases, there has also dawned on those involved in darkness a day of the knowledge of truth. In correspondence with the manner of the sun's rising, prayers are made looking towards the sunrise in the east. Whence also the most ancient temples looked towards the west,(Pagan temples?) that people might be taught to turn to the east when facing the images. (What images? The sun? (But it is in plural)(De architecture mentions the image, the idol (De architectura libri decem 4.5.1)?)) "Let my prayer be directed before Thee as incense, the uplifting of my hands as the evening sacrifice," say the Psalms. ... But the Gnostic will ask... (Clement of Alexandria, Strom. 7.7.43–46;) https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-stromata-book7.html https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02107.htm 4. (c. 185 – c. 253 AD) Origen of Alexandria - (Unknown date) Of the four directions, the North, South, East, and West, who would not at once admit that the East clearly indicates the duty of praying with the face turned towards it with the symbolic suggestion that the soul is looking upon the dawn of the true light?(τοῦ ἀληθινοῦ φωτὸς ἀνατολῇ). Origen, On Prayer (Unknown date). (Origen. 32).44 Origen, On Prayer, Part 3 - Origen, Origen: Prayer, Exhortation to Martyrdom, ed. by Johannes Quasten and Joseph C. Plumpe, trans. by John J. O’Meara, Ancient Christian Writers (New York; Mahwah, NJ: Newman Press, 1954), XIX https://www.ecatholic2000.com/fathers/origen.shtml https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/origen_on_prayer_02_text.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen https://gnosis.study/library/%D0%93%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81/+%20%D0%9D%D0%B5%20%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%20%D0%BE%20%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B5/ENG/Early%20Christian%20Prayer%20and%20Identity%20Formation.pdf 5.(Maybe before 238 - 244 AD (Maybe 220 - 230 AD in Alexandria?)) Origen of Alexandria (c. 185 – c. 253 AD) “The fact that we kneel to pray, for instance, and that of all the quarters of the heavens, the east is the only direction we turn to when we pour out prayer, the reasons for this, I think, are not easily discovered by anyone.” Origen (185-253 AD) Homily on Numbers 2:1-34 https://www.stpatricksvictor.org/wp-content/uploads/FAQ-Ad-orientem.pdf https://vdoc.pub/download/homilies-on-numbers-656uqi23omg0 https://books.google.bg/books/about/Homilies_on_Numbers.html?id=P4pPyRXeWkUC&redir_esc=y https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen 6. 11. (c. 185 – c. 253 AD) Origen of Alexandria (Similar to Clement of Alexandria, Strom. 7.7.43–46;) It is not without interest that by the blood of a bullock is sprinkled in the eastern direction. Because from the east came the reconciliation for you. From there is a man called outgoing, who became a mediator between God and the people. You are also invited to look always to the east, where is the rising Sun of justice and where is anytime the light yield for you. So that you should never walk in the darkness and the last day shouldn’t catch you in the darkness. (Origen - Homily on the Third book of Moses) (Origen - Homilies on Leviticus) https://dokumen.pub/homilies-on-leviticus-1-16-fathers-of-the-church-0813200830-9780813200835.html https://books.google.bg/books?id=Eo9Da7xaBuUC&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=%20from%20the%20east&f=false 7.(330-379 AD) Basil the great - What writing has taught us to turn to the East at the prayer? … We all look toward the East when we pray; but few know that it is because we are looking for our own former country, Paradise, which God planted in Eden in the East. St. Basil the Great, The Holy Spirit, 27,66 Basil, De Spir. Sancto 27.66; https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3203.htm 8. 16. (c. 339 – 397 AD) Ambrose of Milan Having entered, then, in order to look upon your adversary, who you deemed should be renounced to his face, you turned to the east (ad orientem converteris). For the one who renounces the devil turns to Christ (qui enim renuntiat diabolo, ad Christum convertitur), and he looks upon him directly. Bishop Ambrose’ De Mysteriis, (Myst. 2.7) https://gnosis.study/library/%D0%93%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81/+%20%D0%9D%D0%B5%20%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%20%D0%BE%20%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B5/ENG/Early%20Christian%20Prayer%20and%20Identity%20Formation.pdf 9.(354 - 430 AD) Augustine of Hippo - For the purpose of signifying this truth, when we stand at prayer we face the East, where the rise of the heavens begins. This is not to signify that God is dwelling there, as though He had forsaken the other parts of the world—for God is present everywhere, not in habitations of place but in power of majesty. It is done so that the mind may be admonished to turn toward God while its body is turned toward a heavenly body. For, just as the heavenly body is higher than the earthly one, so God is a higher substance than the human mind. Augustine of Hippo, Augustine, Sermon on the Mount 2.5.18 https://documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0354-0430,_Augustinus,_De_Sermone_Domini_In_Monte_Secundum_Matthaeum_[Schaff],_EN.pdf https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/16012.htm 10. (c. 342–347 – 420 AD) Jerome - commentary on Ezekiel 8:16 (That it was forbidden to worship towards East as the pagans) They did this because they despised the Lord, that is, the Creator, and worshipped the sun, that is, the creature of the Lord, as the Lord Himself commanded through Moses (Deut. XII), that they should not worship God against the east in the manner of the Gentiles: but wherever they were in the world, whether to the east, or to the west, or to the south, or to the north, they should worship toward the temple, where it was believed the Lord dwelled in the Holy of Holies. Jerome commentary on Ezekiel 8:1 https://historicalchristian.faith/by_father.php?file=Jerome%2FCommentary%2520on%2520Ezekiel.html https://azbyka.ru/biblia/in/?Ezek.8:16&r 11. c. AD 675/676 - 749 AD) John of Damascus un of Righteousness Malachi 4:2 and Dayspring , the East is the direction that must be assigned to His worship. (Deuteronomy 4:19, Deuteronomy 12:31) ..... For everything good must be assigned to Him from Whom every good thing arises. ..... So, then, in expectation of His coming we worship towards the East. .... But this tradition of the apostles is unwritten. For much that has been handed down to us by tradition is unwritten. Chapter 12. Concerning Worship towards the East. All together: always in high and open places, and facing the light! As the symbol of the Holy Spirit, it loves the (radiant) East, that figure of Christ the sun's rising, prayers are made looking towards the sunrise in the east. Whence also the most ancient temples looked towards the west,(Pagan temples?) that people might be taught to turn to the east when facing the images. the symbolic suggestion that the soul is looking upon the dawn of the true light You are also invited to look always to the east, where is the rising Sun of justice and where is anytime the light yield for you. you turned to the east...turns to Christ...looks upon him directly (The sun) we stand at prayer we face the East, where the rise of the heavens begins It is done so that the mind may be admonished to turn toward God while its body is turned toward a heavenly body. the Lord Himself commanded through Moses (Deut. XII), that they should not worship God against the east in the manner of the Gentiles (Jerome) the East is the direction that must be assigned to His worship For everything good must be assigned to Him from Whom every good thing arises. few know that it is because we are looking for our own former country, Paradise, which God planted in Eden in the East. the reasons for this, I think, are not easily discovered by anyone :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: We stand at prayer we face the East, where the rise of the heavens begins ...facing the light! As the symbol of the Holy Spirit, it loves the (radiant) East, that figure of Christ...while its body is turned toward a heavenly body...you turned to the east...to Christ...looks upon him directly...look always to the east, where is the rising Sun of justice... ...that the soul is looking upon the dawn of the true light... In correspondence with the manner of the sun's rising, prayers are made looking towards the sunrise in the east. Whence also the most ancient temples looked towards the west,(Pagan temples?) that people might be taught to turn to the east when facing the images....the East is the direction that must be assigned to His worship…...but few know.....the reasons for this, I think, are not easily discovered by anyone...But this tradition of the apostles is unwritten. Is it not strange that pop Leo does not mention a very similar practice that is done by the church. Why does he rebuke them if exactly the same is made by the church fathers? He could at least mentions this and defend the practice of the church and clarify why he rebukes them. Probably this may have not been practiced globally as it has become later. I think that it is important to mention that I have yet not found any ancient church fathers mentioning the second coming from the East as the reason for worshiping towards the East. This is mentioned in the didascalia apostolorum, apostolic constitutions (not exactly), John Damascus, all of whom are from Syria. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @SLM - Answer 2: You mention Augustine 354-430: He says - (354 - 430 AD) Augustine of Hippo - For the purpose of signifying this truth, when we stand at prayer we face the East, where the rise of the heavens begins. This is not to signify that God is dwelling there, as though He had forsaken the other parts of the world—for God is present everywhere, not in habitations of place but in power of majesty. It is done so that the mind may be admonished to turn toward God while its body is turned toward a heavenly body. For, just as the heavenly body is higher than the earthly one, so God is a higher substance than the human mind. Augustine of Hippo, Augustine, Sermon on the Mount 2.5.18 https://documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0354-0430,_Augustinus,_De_Sermone_Domini_In_Monte_Secundum_Matthaeum_[Schaff],_EN.pdf https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/16012.htm Pope Leo 1 Says - The foolish practice of some who turn to the sun and bow to it is reprehensible... the ungodly practice of certain foolish folk who worship the sun as it rises...even some Christians think it is so proper to do this...because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself, which is His creature, yet we must abstain even from the appearance of this observance: Augustine says - when we stand at prayer we face the East, where the rise of the heavens begins...It is done so that the mind may be admonished to turn toward God while its body is turned toward a heavenly body. Clement of Alexandria says: “the sun's rising, prayers are made looking towards the sunrise in the east.” (Clement of Alexandria, Strom. 7.7.43–46;) “abstain even from the appearance of this observance” but still do it in the church and home? You mention - (The key phrase is "elevated positions". - High places were originally dedicated to idol worship (Numbers 33:52; Leviticus 26:30), especially among the Moabites (Isaiah 16:12).) Tertullian mentions this: - "always in high and open places, and facing the light! As the symbol of the Holy Spirit, it loves the (radiant) East, that figure of Christ." (Tertullian Adv. Val., c. iii) .(After 207 AD?)Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 220 AD) - (Probably church orientation - (how simple is the very home!— always in high and open places, and facing the light!)) "of our dove", as he terms them, are always in "high and open places, facing the light" (Tertullian Adv. Val., c. iii), the "house of our dove" (a metaphor for the church) ...................................... Of our dove, however, how simple is the very home!— always in high and open places, and facing the light! As the symbol of the Holy Spirit, it loves the (radiant) East, that figure of Christ. Nothing causes truth a blush, except only being hidden, because no man will be ashamed to give ear thereto. (Tertullian Adv. Val., c. iii), https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0314.htm https://ccel.org/ccel/tertullian/against_valentinians/anf03.v.vi.i.html From these answers I learn that this tradition is even more tightly related to the pagan tradition?

Some might question it that this kind of colossal story would be able to pass on accurately via oral tradition: for example older men telling this story to others among his own tribe Beside the fire. My original intent was to ask that how is it possible that exodus story could be passed on to the next generation so accurately? Some might say that exodus story is a myth, because no-one can pass on this story so accurately as it is written in the Bible.

From what I can tell the majority of Protestants use and prefer the Masoretic Text, believing it to be a trustworthy representation of the original Hebrew text of Scripture. I see this based on the Bible translations they tend to use. These translations use the Masoretic Text primarily. - King James Version (KJV) - Revised Version (RV) - 1885 - American Standard Version (ASV) - 1901 - Revised Standard Version (RSV) - 1952 - New American Standard Bible (NASB) - 1971, updated 1995, 2020 - English Standard Version (ESV) - 2001 - New King James Version (NKJV) - 1982 - New International Version (NIV) - 1978, updated 1984, 2011 - Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) - 2004 - Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (JPS) - 1917, updated 1985 - Christian Standard Bible (CSB) - 2017 - Luther Bible (German) - 1534 - ... At the same time, most Protestants reject Orthodox Church Tradition as being untrustworthy. Here are 5 clear examples. 1. Veneration of Icons: The Eastern Orthodox practice of venerating icons—honoring images of Christ, the Virgin Mary, and saints through bowing, kissing, or lighting candles—is rooted in an oral tradition emphasizing their role as "windows to heaven." This practice, developed and defended during the Iconoclastic Controversies (8th-9th centuries), holds that icons facilitate a connection to the divine prototype they represent. Mainstream Protestants, particularly those from Reformed and Baptist traditions, reject this as idolatry, citing the Second Commandment (Exodus 20:4-5) against making graven images. They argue it lacks biblical mandate and reflects a later human tradition, not an apostolic one, despite Orthodox claims of its roots in early Christian art and the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 AD). 2. Theosis (Divinization): The Orthodox doctrine of theosis, the process of becoming partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), is an oral tradition elaborated through the teachings of the Fathers (e.g., Athanasius: "God became man so that man might become god"). It emphasizes sanctification and union with God through participation in the sacraments and ascetic life. Many Protestants reject this as unbiblical or semi-Pelagian, asserting it overemphasizes human effort over divine grace alone. While some Protestant theologians acknowledge sanctification, they distance themselves from the Orthodox framing, seeing it as a development beyond scriptural boundaries. 3. Prayer for the Dead and Intercession of Saints: The Orthodox practice of praying for the departed and seeking the intercession of saints is an oral tradition traced to early Christian commemorations and the belief in a "communion of saints." This is evident in liturgical texts and the writings of figures like John Chrysostom. Mainstream Protestants, especially Evangelicals and Reformed churches, reject this, arguing it lacks explicit biblical support (e.g., Hebrews 9:27) and introduces mediators beyond Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). They view it as a later accretion, despite Orthodox assertions of its apostolic origin. 4. The Role of Tradition as Equal to Scripture: The Orthodox belief that oral tradition, including unwritten apostolic teachings (e.g., on worship practices or sacramental theology), holds equal authority with Scripture—based on 2 Thessalonians 2:15—is a foundational oral tradition. Protestants counter that this contradicts sola scriptura, insisting that only what is written in the Bible is authoritative. They see the Orthodox reliance on tradition as unverifiable and prone to human error, challenging the claim that it preserves an unbroken apostolic witness, especially given historical variations in practice. 5. Liturgical Practices and Sacramental Theology: Specific unwritten traditions, such as the detailed structure of the Divine Liturgy (e.g., the use of incense, specific chants, and the Epiclesis in the Eucharist), are considered apostolic by the Orthodox, passed down orally and refined over centuries. Mainstream Protestants, particularly low-church denominations like Baptists, reject these as non-essential or extra-biblical, favoring simpler worship forms aligned with their interpretation of New Testament gatherings (e.g., Acts 2:42). They question the apostolicity of these practices, suggesting they evolved post-apostolically. To my understanding, and based on other interactions on this website. They believe that the Church’s oral tradition could not possibly preserve Truth over a long period of time. (That is, it was affected by the additions of man, it was corrupted over time) But at the same time we know that the Masoretic text added Vowel points to Hebrew. The original text was all consonants, **the reader of the text had to remember from oral tradition the proper vowels**. This means since the Time of Moses until the 5th century AD when the Masorites added the vowels to every word in the Old Testament the proper understanding of the text was preserved through oral tradition alone. (See my answer here ) So my confusion is based on this apparent contradiction. 1. the Masoretic vowels are trustworthy, the Jews successfully preserved the vowels of Scripture for thousands of years, **through oral tradition alone**, until the Masoretes finally invented the vowel points hundreds of years after Christ. 2. But things like the oral traditions I listed above are untrustworthy, despite the oral tradition claim that these are directly from the Apostles. My question is simply if we cannot trust the early church to maintain oral tradition for a few hundred years, why do we trust the Jews to maintain oral tradition **inerrantly for millennia?** --- I looked at this other question, but it doesn't really answer my question. https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/40843/how-are-emendations-to-the-masoretic-text-viewed-within-the-doctrine-of-inerranc *P.S. I do not see how the catholic church would be relevant, I'm referring to the oral traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Church.*

One I know of were the Levitical singers reciting the Psalms. What other methods were used by the Israelites that preserved the Old Testament - whether oral or written?